Regretting an abortion

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Emiliana
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Regretting an abortion

Post by Emiliana »

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/83160/

I submitted this comment, but as I suspected it would be, it was rejected.

This doesn't necessarily change what your bishop would tell you to do in this situation, but studies (most recently this one: http://time.com/3956781/women-abortion- ... ve-health/) actually indicate that most women do not tend up regretting their abortions.


Reason for rejection: Feelings of regret are probably more prevalent in Mormon communities than in the world at large. Thanks for your comment though!
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Marduk »

Can you say confirmation bias? Holy cats.

Also: nowhere in the hypothetical does it say the friend is Mormon. Also also: the church has no position on when life actually begins, despite many people within the church believing differently. Also also also: "everything in their power" is pretty darn scary. That's the sort of stuff that gets abortion clinics bombed.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Zedability »

I think people interpret "everything in their power" differently. For instance, I'd interpret "everything in my power" to mean that once something goes beyond reasonable bounds of what's my business, I should shut up and let people make their own decisions, because it's no longer in the limits of what I have power over. Other people interpret "everything in their power" to mean doing everything humanly possible, even things that objectively go beyond the limits of "their power", or the limits of what's their business and what's not. And it's those people that we need to worry about.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Emiliana »

Zedability wrote:I think people interpret "everything in their power" differently. For instance, I'd interpret "everything in my power" to mean that once something goes beyond reasonable bounds of what's my business, I should shut up and let people make their own decisions, because it's no longer in the limits of what I have power over. Other people interpret "everything in their power" to mean doing everything humanly possible, even things that objectively go beyond the limits of "their power", or the limits of what's their business and what's not. And it's those people that we need to worry about.
Interesting. So from your perspective, is it within reasonable bounds of what's-your-business to try to get anti-abortion legislation passed? Or would that be limiting other people's agency?
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Re: Regretting an abortion

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Zedability wrote:I think people interpret "everything in their power" differently. For instance, I'd interpret "everything in my power" to mean that once something goes beyond reasonable bounds of what's my business, I should shut up and let people make their own decisions, because it's no longer in the limits of what I have power over. Other people interpret "everything in their power" to mean doing everything humanly possible, even things that objectively go beyond the limits of "their power", or the limits of what's their business and what's not. And it's those people that we need to worry about.
Also, why the emphasis? And why not use a phrase that's more clear? Something like "make clear your position" or "do what is in your power, within reason?" I think the phrase intentionally opens up possibilities that are not good ideas or good sense, and is why many people find Mormons so pedantic and aggressive. Is there really anyone who doesn't know that Mormons don't agree with most abortions?
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Emiliana »

Marduk wrote:Can you say confirmation bias? Holy cats.
Anecdotally, I have three* friends who've had abortions. Two have absolutely no regrets and see it as absolutely the right choice for their lives at that time. The third regrets it somewhat, but it was never what she wanted to begin with -- her boyfriend pressured her into it.

To me the confirmation bias in this bishop's letter, and also in the editor's note to me, is that of course Mormons are going to have more guilt about an abortion, because they've been told it's wrong. Just like Christians have more guilt about masturbating, or what-have-you. Their guilt is presented to them as proof that what they've done is wrong, when in my opinion that's completely circular reasoning.

(And that, in a nutshell, is why I am not religious anymore.)


*that I know of. Presumably there are others who just haven't found it necessary to tell me all the details about their reproductive lives.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Marduk »

I was more referring to the idea that in LDS theology, abortion is a sin, and therefore something to repent of. A bishop is a facilitator of repentance. Ergo, the women who feel regret and want to repent would go to their bishop. Those who did not would either A) never go to the bishop in the first place o B) work with the bishop until they DID feel regret. The number of people who would go to the bishop over something they did not regret or see as a sin would be incredibly small, possibly even zero.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Portia »

(Full disclosure: despite being sexually active, I've never been pregnant nor had to get an abortion.)

While what the Bishop's anecdotal evidence reveals his personal views on the matter, and may reflect his milieu, this doesn't reflect the latest research.

95% of women do not regret their abortions.

Source. Source. The actual PLOS ONE data which is the most reliable source.

I feel like if a non-LDS female friend of yours gets pregnant and makes that decision, lecturing her won't change her mind and will cost you the friendship. Being there for her physically and emotionally could very well give her a positive view of your own character: she knows your stance on sex, and unless you're the father of the child, I don't see how your opinion on what choice she makes matters AT ALL.

And of course I feel that even LDS women have the legal option, and should weigh the consequences of what they view as sin as adult women and not be treated as if an unplanned pregnancy is akin to mass murder. It's a problem, obviously, but there's a man involved unless you used a turkey baster in a fit of baby hunger, so the one-sided shame and self-fulfilling prophecies by men of the doom and regret a woman will feel seem psychologically harmful to me.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by TheBlackSheep »

Marduk's thoughts about confirmation bias were mine exactly.

Also, good heaven with the DON'T GO TO THE ABORTION CLINIC AND BE SUPPORTIVE BECAUSE THEN SHE'LL THINK IT'S OKAY. The very least codependent parts of me think that's ridiculous. Whether or not the friend ever regrets her decision, nobody looks forward to getting an abortion. Nobody comes out of that experience thinking, "Oh golly gee that was fun!" Nobody goes into it thinking, "Am I excited to kill this fetus or what!" The overwhelming majority of people who get abortions are doing their best with a bad situation, and, whether or not you agree with what they are doing, the experience is going to be hard on them. Your disapproval (hopefully) won't stop them from doing what they think is best** (and hopefully you wouldn't want anyone's disapproval to stop anyone from doing what they think is best), but lack of any support might make a negative situation into a truly awful or traumatic one. If you can't do it because of the abortion itself, well, I still think that is silly, but okay. If you can't do it and you're justifying it by saying you're doing what's best for the woman involved... Yeah. No.

**I'm not saying that women necessarily should get abortions in this sentence.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by TheBlackSheep »

I mean, what a condescending and patronizing point of view.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Cognoscente »

That bishop sounds like a complete tool.

If anything, I feel like your baptismal covenants compel one to go with their friend and "mourn with those that mourn." It doesn't say "mourn with those that mourn unless they're sinners, then screw 'em." It doesn't say "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me, unless they're sinners, then screw 'em." Shunning is not a form of love.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Whistler »

I agree.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Shrinky Dink »

I feel like the appropriate reaction to this situation, is nearly the same as the appropriate reaction to other difficult issues whether it be divorce, cancer, death, etc.

When someone tells you that they've been diagnosed with cancer, don't tell them about people you know who have died from cancer, weird alternative treatments (like eating only carrots) that you've found online that are only supported by anecdotal evidence, or tell them that they must have done something wrong to deserve it. When someone tells you that they're getting a divorce, it's not appropriate to ask who's fault it is, blame them for not upholding an eternal marriage, or condemn them for not trying the eight different family therapists you found online. Similarly, when someone has told you that they think they are going to get an abortion, it's probably a really bad time to tell them that you think they're a sinner, are going to hell for not putting the child up for adoption, and you know 8 other people who have regretted it later on.

One of the better reactions when you know someone who is going through something really tough is, "I'm sorry, that sucks. How can I help?" and then offer actual ways you can help, offering them a ride, watching the kids, making them dinner, helping them clean, offering a shoulder to cry on, talking about it/not talking about it, etc.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

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Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Portia »

In the interest of hearing a differing opinion, what would someone actually say if they refuse to go?

"You'll regret this the rest of your life"?
"You should change your mind, this is why I think that"?
"I'll adopt your baby"?
"I'm not able to." (no further comment)

Genuinely curious.

I don't think I'd ask someone to a Planned Parenthood I knew wasn't at least tepidly pro-choice, and I'd much prefer to (hypothetically!) go alone, but in some states, I don't think you can.

I still think that threatening the membership status of someone who does accompany a woman to an abortion clinic is, well, wrong. (It's somewhat analogous to excommunicating a Mormon designated driver at a party: they didn't drink, right?) Auto Surf says he/she doesn't "think" you'd be kicked out, but that's not really definitive.

That's what troubles me more than the idea of someone opting NOT to go with their friend: threatening the membership of someone who deigns to act as they see right, whether on this issue, gay marriage, medical procedures they'll perform, etc. I honestly feel the messaging is very inconsistent on these types of issues.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Zedability »

I don't know whether I'd go or not, but I do know that if someone is close enough to me to ask me to go with them, they're probably also close enough that we'd have a conversation about why that's the decision they made. I'd like to think I'd be understanding and listen to their concerns, and I probably would do my best to find alternative solutions, but if they were set on it, I know it's an emotional decision for anyone and I wouldn't want to say anything that would only increase their pain, especially if it wasn't going to change their mind anyways. That's just pointlessly cruel and I hate it when people engage in that kind of behavior. If I decided not to go, I'd probably say something along the lines of, "I understand why you're making this decision and I want you to know that it doesn't change how I feel about you, but I would feel really uncomfortable being there because of my own beliefs. Can I help you find someone else to come with you?" Hopefully they'd have more people supporting them than just me in their life.

I would not feel comfortable accompanying someone unless I felt a specific spiritual confirmation that I should. In that case, I feel like ideally the Bishop would also listen to the the Spirit and receive the same confirmation. The fact that this is so politically charged makes me feel like a lot of members would be afraid to recognize, accept, or act on that feeling, and that I would be worried about what the bishop would say even if I felt like it was right. I think that's a shame. However, I also legitimately feel like there are two people at stake here - the mother and the child. I understand that not everybody agrees that the fetus should be conferred the same moral weight of personhood. But because I do, I can't automatically put the feelings of the mother above the life of the child. If I didn't feel right about going, I would do all I could to say that gently and to respect the mother's decision and how difficult and emotional it is for her, but I feel like after I said and did all I could to be kind and provide comfort, I'm not a bad person for following what I think is right and avoiding a situation that would make me feel very uncomfortable and guilty to participate in, which I do see as ending a life and feel strongly against.

That being said, I also believe strongly that it's important to view the reasons women get abortion with compassion and not judgment, and to try to improve societal trends so that less women have to make that difficult decision in the first place, i.e. improved access to birth control, daycare, and paid maternity leave. I also believe that in the cases of rape or medical issues, women should be supported in their choice - in the first case, because they didn't get any sort of choice at all, and in the second case, because the "right to life" extends to the mother as well. Because of that, limiting access to abortion clinics too much is wrong. I just don't want to go myself in some cases.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Portia »

Thanks for chiming in. :-) I appreciated the perspective and you are always a considerate person.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Portia »

^if you've had your caffeine and not stayed up til 4 AM
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Rainbow_connection »

I'll chime in and hopefully not come across as too judgmental. I don't think the comparisons of attending an abortion to being a designated driver are apt - drinking is not something I see as inherently sinful. It hasn't always been against the laws of God or the church. On the other hand, I don't think we're obligated to go along with or support anything our friends do just because it's difficult for them. Imagine you have a friend who is deep in debt. They really really just can't make their payments, so, while they don't love the idea, they decide to rob a bank and ask you to be the getaway driver. Leaving aside legality, I still wouldn't accompany them because I don't think it's the right thing to do. I'm not saying these are the same thing at all, it's just an analogy to illustrate that there's a line between being supportive of friends who make a different choice than you would and being actively involved in something you believe is wrong; where you personally draw the line may differ.
On a personal note, when my husband and I were struggling with infertility the close friend of a close friend became pregnant unintentionally. She asked our mutual friend to try to help her find adoptive parents, and he asked us if we'd be interested. We said we would and began making arrangements. A few weeks later she decided she couldn't let her parents know she was pregnant and terminated the pregnancy. It was very hard to feel like she wasn't ending a much-anticipated life. We thanked her for considering us to adopt her child and wished her the best, because despite the fact that we were devastated by her decision there wasn't anything else to say.
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Re: Regretting an abortion

Post by Emiliana »

Rainbow_connection wrote:I'll chime in and hopefully not come across as too judgmental. I don't think the comparisons of attending an abortion to being a designated driver are apt - drinking is not something I see as inherently sinful. It hasn't always been against the laws of God or the church. On the other hand, I don't think we're obligated to go along with or support anything our friends do just because it's difficult for them. Imagine you have a friend who is deep in debt. They really really just can't make their payments, so, while they don't love the idea, they decide to rob a bank and ask you to be the getaway driver. Leaving aside legality, I still wouldn't accompany them because I don't think it's the right thing to do. I'm not saying these are the same thing at all, it's just an analogy to illustrate that there's a line between being supportive of friends who make a different choice than you would and being actively involved in something you believe is wrong; where you personally draw the line may differ.
I think this is a reasonable analogy.
Rainbow_connection wrote:On a personal note, when my husband and I were struggling with infertility the close friend of a close friend became pregnant unintentionally. She asked our mutual friend to try to help her find adoptive parents, and he asked us if we'd be interested. We said we would and began making arrangements. A few weeks later she decided she couldn't let her parents know she was pregnant and terminated the pregnancy. It was very hard to feel like she wasn't ending a much-anticipated life. We thanked her for considering us to adopt her child and wished her the best, because despite the fact that we were devastated by her decision there wasn't anything else to say.
That's rough. One reason I'm pro-choice is that I think no child should be born into a situation where he or she is unwanted or resented, and clearly that wasn't the case with this pregnancy. I think it would be hard not to resent the woman, and definitely reasonable to mourn the loss.

Tangentially, I have a friend who has had three miscarriages of very much wanted children in the last couple of years. She hates when people say life doesn't begin until later in the pregnancy, because to her that's saying that her early-term losses weren't lives worth mourning. I don't think that it has to be technically a "life" for her to feel the loss and mourn it, because it held the promise of motherhood to her which was then taken away. But I don't tell her that because it kind of seems condescending. I don't even know if she knows I'm pro-choice.
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