Regretting an abortion

[TheBlackSheep]

But because I do, I can't automatically put the feelings of the mother above the life of the child. If I didn't feel right about going, I would do all I could to say that gently and to respect the mother's decision and how difficult and emotional it is for her, but I feel like after I said and did all I could to be kind and provide comfort, I'm not a bad person for following what I think is right and avoiding a situation that would make me feel very uncomfortable and guilty to participate in, which I do see as ending a life and feel strongly against.

I called this point of view "silly" in my comment, and I was being flippant because I don't really think it's silly. I disagree but it isn't silly. We all have boundaries that we need to be able to keep. If you couldn't go, I think that's perfectly reasonable. What upset me about the bishop's comments was that one of the reasons given for the friend not to go was that the friend would then think it is okay. That was what most of my earlier comments was about. This I find totally reasonable and compassionate to boot.

That being said, I also believe strongly that it's important to view the reasons women get abortion with compassion and not judgment, and to try to improve societal trends so that less women have to make that difficult decision in the first place, i.e. improved access to birth control, daycare, and paid maternity leave.

Thanks for bringing this into the conversation. I'm pro-choice, obviously, and one of my problems with the American pro-life movement is that, as a generally conservative movement, it often seems to include the same people who want to cut back on programs that increase access to women's healthcare, provide funds and daycare to low-income families, provide low-cost or no-cost mental health and substance abuse treatment, etc. I have trouble with that point of view because of what I know becomes of children born into these kinds of circumstances. You and I share the same objective in improving societal trends and reducing the number of abortions.

[TheBlackSheep]

On the other hand, I don't think we're obligated to go along with or support anything our friends do just because it's difficult for them. Imagine you have a friend who is deep in debt. They really really just can't make their payments, so, while they don't love the idea, they decide to rob a bank and ask you to be the getaway driver. Leaving aside legality, I still wouldn't accompany them because I don't think it's the right thing to do. I'm not saying these are the same thing at all, it's just an analogy to illustrate that there's a line between being supportive of friends who make a different choice than you would and being actively involved in something you believe is wrong; where you personally draw the line may differ.

Hmm, interesting. I would agree that nobody is obligated to support anyone in doing anything, regardless of whether it is hard for their friend. In some circumstances (though not, I think, the ones we are currently discussing), that would amount to straight up enabling, which is never helpful. If you believe that abortion is wrong enough that you could never support it, it is totally within your rights to not support it. If, however, your reasons are that, by taking your friend to get an abortion, you are helping her think it's okay, I think that is less valid.

I can see how the analogy works for your point of view and why it is more accurate than the drunk driving analogy. It seems extreme from my point of view, but I can understand your point of view better.

On a personal note, when my husband and I were struggling with infertility the close friend of a close friend became pregnant unintentionally. She asked our mutual friend to try to help her find adoptive parents, and he asked us if we'd be interested. We said we would and began making arrangements. A few weeks later she decided she couldn't let her parents know she was pregnant and terminated the pregnancy. It was very hard to feel like she wasn't ending a much-anticipated life. We thanked her for considering us to adopt her child and wished her the best, because despite the fact that we were devastated by her decision there wasn't anything else to say.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you. How devastating. All failed adoptions are tragic, and I can understand how the abortion in this situation could have made a terrible situation worse.

[bobtheenchantedone]

That being said, I also believe strongly that it's important to view the reasons women get abortion with compassion and not judgment, and to try to improve societal trends so that less women have to make that difficult decision in the first place, i.e. improved access to birth control, daycare, and paid maternity leave.

Thanks for bringing this into the conversation. I'm pro-choice, obviously, and one of my problems with the American pro-life movement is that, as a generally conservative movement, it often seems to include the same people who want to cut back on programs that increase access to women's healthcare, provide funds and daycare to low-income families, provide low-cost or no-cost mental health and substance abuse treatment, etc. I have trouble with that point of view because of what I know becomes of children born into these kinds of circumstances. You and I share the same objective in improving societal trends and reducing the number of abortions.

Thiiiiiiiiiiis. This is why, even as someone who looks forward to children and can't imagine getting an abortion even if I were to accidentally get pregnant before I wanted to or felt I could emotionally/mentally/financially care for a child, I cannot support a ban on abortions. There are pro-lifers, and many of them are among the loudest, that are really just pro-birth. My mother is one of them. Once that baby is born the mother is on her own, possibly without even a supportive partner to help care for her and the baby financially and emotionally. And getting pregnant in the first place is talked of as being the woman's fault for being stupid, not taking into account what methods of birth control may or may not be available for her, what kind of relationship she might be in (such as whether she has a partner who talks her out of using condoms or lies about a vasectomy), or if extenuating circumstances came up that make a pregnancy that might have been fine suddenly seem impossible.

Ideally, abortions will be legal, safe, and ABOVE ALL, rare. Because there will be better options available to prevent unwanted pregnancies and easily-available support for women who need financial or emotional help after birth.

[Portia]

What about women who regret having children?

[Zedability]

That being said, I also believe strongly that it's important to view the reasons women get abortion with compassion and not judgment, and to try to improve societal trends so that less women have to make that difficult decision in the first place, i.e. improved access to birth control, daycare, and paid maternity leave.

Thanks for bringing this into the conversation. I'm pro-choice, obviously, and one of my problems with the American pro-life movement is that, as a generally conservative movement, it often seems to include the same people who want to cut back on programs that increase access to women's healthcare, provide funds and daycare to low-income families, provide low-cost or no-cost mental health and substance abuse treatment, etc. I have trouble with that point of view because of what I know becomes of children born into these kinds of circumstances. You and I share the same objective in improving societal trends and reducing the number of abortions.

Thiiiiiiiiiiis. This is why, even as someone who looks forward to children and can't imagine getting an abortion even if I were to accidentally get pregnant before I wanted to or felt I could emotionally/mentally/financially care for a child, I cannot support a ban on abortions. There are pro-lifers, and many of them are among the loudest, that are really just pro-birth. My mother is one of them. Once that baby is born the mother is on her own, possibly without even a supportive partner to help care for her and the baby financially and emotionally. And getting pregnant in the first place is talked of as being the woman's fault for being stupid, not taking into account what methods of birth control may or may not be available for her, what kind of relationship she might be in (such as whether she has a partner who talks her out of using condoms or lies about a vasectomy), or if extenuating circumstances came up that make a pregnancy that might have been fine suddenly seem impossible.

Ideally, abortions will be legal, safe, and ABOVE ALL, rare. Because there will be better options available to prevent unwanted pregnancies and easily-available support for women who need financial or emotional help after birth.

I agree so much with all of this. It's why I usually end up supporting the Democrats on these issues, despite disagreeing about the principles behind abortion. I see it as a better alternative to decreasing the actual number of abortions in a way that is helpful to a variety of related women's issues as well.

[Rainbow_connection]

I completely agree there needs to be more systematic and societal support for pregnant women and mothers, and I also think adoption should be de-stigmatized (I'm not saying we should go back to the 50s and make every unwed pregnant woman place her child for adoption, just that it still seems to have some negative connotations for a lot of people that I think are undeserved). I also am a huge proponent of reversible long-acting birth control as a good option for many young women, and I think it should be available.
Portia, hopefully if these measures were in place, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and more options for the mothers (adoption, returning to work a reasonable amount of time after giving birth, affordable childcare) so there would be less regret around having children (I hope that makes sense, I feel like my thoughts are scattered and I'm typing on my phone).

[Rainbow_connection]

Emiliana and Black Sheep, thanks for your kind words. Infertility is hard and the whole situation was terrible.

I was a little nervous about my analogy but I hope it helped clarify my position. I wouldn't be comfortable being present for an abortion in most cases, but my discomfort would stem from my own personal beliefs, not from hoping to demonstrate my disapproval.

[Portia]

Portia, hopefully if these measures were in place, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and more options for the mothers (adoption, returning to work a reasonable amount of time after giving birth, affordable childcare) so there would be less regret around having children (I hope that makes sense, I feel like my thoughts are scattered and I'm typing on my phone).

I just think that some women (most?) that seek abortions don't want to be mothers: maybe not then, maybe not ever. That would be my motivation if I were to seek one at this point in my life. So these maternity measures would not address that case. (Obviously, I'm a fan of various forms of birth control.)

[TheBlackSheep]

Portia, that's why (I presume) Zedability and I listed birth control/maternal health as an area that needs improvement. Birth control should be much easier to access, especially for low-income women or women with mental health and substance abuse issues.

Many of my clients had or wanted abortions because of pregnancies they acquired while they were prostituting or otherwise emotionally incapacitated due to their substance abuse issues. This is why I mentioned no cost/low cost mental health and substance abuse issues--as a preventative measure.

I also think that EVERY insurance plan should include access to birth control, regardless of religious preference of business owners. I'm all for religious liberties, but I just don't think religious freedom arguments apply in this case.

[Rainbow_connection]

This is slightly tangential, but I believe I read somewhere that about 30% of pregnancies in the United States began while the couple was using birth control. This is why I'm such a fan of long-acting reversible contraceptive methods - the ideal use failure rate is the same as the typical use failure rate. I've heard of some insurance providers trying to deny coverage of the patch and hormonal IUDs because they're "essentially the same" as the pill, and I think that needs to be stopped immediately.

[Zedability]

This is slightly tangential, but I believe I read somewhere that about 30% of pregnancies in the United States began while the couple was using birth control. This is why I'm such a fan of long-acting reversible contraceptive methods - the ideal use failure rate is the same as the typical use failure rate. I've heard of some insurance providers trying to deny coverage of the patch and hormonal IUDs because they're "essentially the same" as the pill, and I think that needs to be stopped immediately.

Especially for people who aren't in stable life situations, such as addictions, mental health illnesses, or abusive partners, having the IUD put in once is going to work a lot better than needing to take a pill every day and needing to get your prescription filled and renewed regularly (which can also be a challenge for people who can't hold down a job and are constantly in a state of flux with their insurance).

IUDs are so prohibitively expensive though, I think they should be subsidized more than they are. Over the course of two years or so, they come out to be the same cost as the pill.

[TheBlackSheep]

Rainbow_connection and Zed, I could not agree more.

[Shrinky Dink]

I have a hormonal IUD, Mirena, and I am glad that it was completely covered by my insurance.

Some things that I think would help reduce abortions would be increased access to birth control and maybe even encouraging (not forcing) women on welfare or women who have had an abortion to get a complimentary IUD. I also think it would be great if all prenatal care and at least 9 months (preferably 18) of postnatal/partum care was completely covered. This would allow infants to at least have their first round of immunizations and hopefully combat postpartum depression. It would also have the benefit of (hopefully) finding and taking care of any major issues before they become a major issue. I also want daycare to be more affordable and longer maternity and paternity leave for new parents (four months for mom and one month for dad would be a good start).

Overall, I think a lot of these problems can be solved/reduced by putting the father back in the home and either using reliable BC or waiting until marriage to be intimate. Ideally, fathers would be able to support their families, mothers would be able to raise the children, and all kids would all grow up in loving, nurturing homes where all the basic necessities are provided for. Unfortunately, the world is not ideal. BC fails, fathers leave the home, people lose their jobs, parents pass away, people get divorced, children get sick, and there's too much month at the end of the money.

[Emiliana]

Yeah, the pill and the IUD are really not the same thing at all. I was pretty good at taking my pill daily, but the IUD is still MUCH less stressful. Also, the pill gave me migraines and the IUD doesn't. I'd call that a pretty big difference too.

[Zedability]

Even within marriage though, my husband and I definitely don't feel like we're in the financial or stage of life to have a kid. The fact that BYU health insurance still has birth control paid completely out-of-pocket annoys me.

[Portia]

My partners have always used condoms. Fortunately, no pregnancy scares yet, and no side effects. I don't know if I'm just lucky, or have the social leverage to get what I want, or what. It's unfortunate less well-off women seem to have so much less power in their relationships, often.

[NovemberEast]

While reading through this, I noticed a few people mentioned IUDs as a good option. It's important to note that IUDs aren't advised for "unstable" situations and doctors will caution that a stable monogamous relationship is important due to potential iud complications. While it's not like they'd have to get a new one if they get a new partner, there are just higher risks for complications if STI/STDs come in to the picture than with other forms of bc.

That aside, I have an IUD and it's great. I got it for "free" (at the byu health center while on byu insurance) because I applied for some random grant. If I get another one, I'll probably pay out of pocket because I wouldn't qualify anymore...but that's what my HSA is for.

[Amity]

Chiming in here to say that long-acting reversible contraception is THE BEST. I have the hormonal implant and I love that I do not have to think about pregnancy prevention at all for three years (or whenever I decide to get it removed) and that I don't have to worry about user error.

IUDs are so prohibitively expensive though...

I might be wrong, but assuming an insurer follows all the mandates of the Affordable Care Act, I think all birth control methods are provided at no extra cost to the patient. When I got my implant I only had to pay my regular co-pay to my physician so I could get a referral to a gynecologist from her. I didn't even pay anything at all to the gyno when I got the implant. Of course, your mileage (and insurance) may vary.

While reading through this, I noticed a few people mentioned IUDs as a good option. It's important to note that IUDs aren't advised for "unstable" situations and doctors will caution that a stable monogamous relationship is important due to potential iud complications. While it's not like they'd have to get a new one if they get a new partner, there are just higher risks for complications if STI/STDs come in to the picture than with other forms of bc.

Just gonna put in one more plug here for the hormonal implant, which seems like it might avoid some of the potential complications of IUDs that you describe.

Okay, stepping off my birth control evangelist soapbox now.

[Emiliana]

assuming an insurer follows all the mandates of the Affordable Care Act

I live in Texas..............This doesn't always happen.

I hadn't thought about the potential STD-related complications with the IUD. Another reason to use condoms if you're not in a monogamous relationship.

[Shrinky Dink]

Good point with the IUD complications. Honestly, if I find out that I have a sexually active daughter, my first trip for her is going to be to the gyno for her to get either the depo shot or the implant so that I know she is protected from at least one of the consequences of sex.

As far as the ACA, I believe that it has to cover all types of BC, but it doesn't necessarily have to cover the name brand form of it. Since there are no generic forms of any IUD yet, insurance should be required to cover it unless they have some sort of grandfathered plan or something else weird and stupid.