83352 - The Board Apostasy Board (I'm joking, not hating)

[TheBlackSheep]

Also: I think Marduk does a great job of calling people out on this thread when their tone gets out of hand or when they make personal attacks. So hats off, Ducky!

[Portia]

BYU is an interesting place: I can't think of many other colleges where its graduates trend to loosen up at age 30 compared to age 20.

Is that another factor? Most of us active posters are working professionals, not coeds, and thus have different concerns and life experiences, understandably.

[TheBlackSheep]

Well, right, but why aren't the current students replacing us as we "age out" of that demographic? As yayfulness pointed out, there have been no new usernames registered since December. It wasn't always that way.

[NovemberEast]

NovemberEast and Zed, what is it about the tone of some threads?

It's hard to say. I can tell you that I was very intimidated by the most recent abortion post. The pitchforks were really out and it seemed like everyone was storming the 100 hour board castle. But then there was the gay wedding cake discussion that got pretty lively from both ends and actually got me thinking so I enjoyed that thread.

NovemberEast, I think the clique-y nature of things comes from the fact that most of the active participants I can think of here have been here a long time so we're friendly with each other. Does it feel to you like we're discriminating or mean to outsiders? That's something else entirely.

I haven't quite figured out who the other "outsiders" are so I'm not sure. On my end, if I engage with others, they almost always interact. So I don't think there's any discrimination or meanness there. But, I'm usually the one initiating interaction. In cases like that I just assume I didn't peak anyone's interest and I'm ok with that.

[Whistler]

yeah, posts like the abortion thread where people make really passionate posts and then more people pretty much agree make it less friendly for discussion. I didn't mind because I agreed with "our" "consensus". I probably shouldn't have posted that I agreed, because it didn't add anything to the discussion and just made it seem like other people would be cads for disagreeing. But I feel like the whole point of The Boardboard is to have a place where we can be contrary and argue with writers on the 100 HB because it's not done there!

Quite frankly, I don't mind the homogeneity of liberal opinions on The Boardboard; I feel it balances out all the really conservative religious stuff I get on the 100 HB and on FB. I can whine or gripe about LDS culture all I want here and no one will have a cow about it. I can't do that anywhere else. I think I might be less polite here sometimes because it's sort of anonymous, but I love that I can let that aspect of my personality out sometimes.

[NovemberEast]

yeah, posts like the abortion thread where people make really passionate posts and then more people pretty much agree make it less friendly for discussion. I didn't mind because I agreed with "our" "consensus". I probably shouldn't have posted that I agreed, because it didn't add anything to the discussion and just made it seem like other people would be cads for disagreeing. But I feel like the whole point of The Boardboard is to have a place where we can be contrary and argue with writers on the 100 HB because it's not done there!

Quite frankly, I don't mind the homogeneity of liberal opinions on The Boardboard; I feel it balances out all the really conservative religious stuff I get on the 100 HB and on FB. I can whine or gripe about LDS culture all I want here and no one will have a cow about it. I can't do that anywhere else. I think I might be less polite here sometimes because it's sort of anonymous, but I love that I can let that aspect of my personality out sometimes.

Real questions, not just for you and not trying to be a jerk...I actually am curious.

If you disagree with the writing on the board, why do you follow it?
And
What is it that makes you enjoy disagreeing/arguing on theboardboard as apposed to an exmo reddit?

[Zedability]

I also felt completely unable to post anything on the abortion thread; I kind of preemptively assumed I would be attacked for my opinion there.

I'm in a very bad mood today and I wouldn't usually say this, but this entire thread bugs me. The same people agreeing about how nice and open minded you all are are the same people who have consistently told anyone who posts a conservative viewpoint that they're narrow-minded bigots until they all went away. It's easy to be nice once you've bullied everyone who disagrees with you into not posting about how they disagree with you. I know most of you have felt similar feelings of being unable to express your opinions when you were in the minority and the majority conservative viewpoint told you you were bad people for having liberal opinions, and I'm disappointed in how quickly the confirmation bias of the majority has re-emerged in the opposite direction.

So don't let the general consensus on this thread lull you all into thinking that you're so open-minded and tolerant to other viewpoints and that anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaking "disagreement" or "leaving the bubble for the first time" for "intolerance." Because there has been real intolerance.

[Indefinite Integral]

Indefinite Integral, I'm not trying to jump down your throat at all. I'd agree that the culture here has shifted since I started writing in 2008, as I said above. My question for you is: does that make us unfriendly? Are you nervous disagreeing because it's hard to be in the minority (and it is) or because we're mean/unfriendly?

I just don't see at least most of us as unfriendly in the least, but I want to know if I'm wrong, especially about me.

The thing is that it took a lot of bravery to get the culture of the Board Board here. I remember feeling so scared and nervous and alone when I posted things that were even a little out of line with very mainstream Mormonism, even when I was an active, enthusiastic member. I guess I could have just been intimidated, but I don't want to make people feel the way I felt in 2008.

For me, personally, I definitely don't like being in the minority, and I'm really bad at justifying my opinions. I don't see the people on here as unfriendly, but I also don't feel like my viewpoint would be accepted or really considered on here most of the time. This is partially because I really am horrible at justifying my statements in a coherent manner (which is why I was never a board writer) and partially because there are so few other active posters who would be interested in backing me up.

If I were to sum up, I don't think the more liberal members of the board board are outright mean, but you can definitely be very intense and when there are a lot of you all being very intense, it can make one hesitant to say something against the prevailing culture.

[Portia]

What is it that makes you enjoy disagreeing/arguing on theboardboard as apposed to an exmo reddit?

For the record, I'm 99% certain that Whistler is a practicing, active Mormon. Which I think is the point.

[yayfulness]

If I had to point to a specific moment in which the Board/BoardBoard split took a turn for the worse, I'd say it was when this happened.

[Portia]

I certainly was more conservative even two years ago. (I didn't drink, for starters, and I think I thereafter had a good year of questionable relational ethics by my own moral code.) I see no particular harm in the active writers trying to match an official BYU tone; I still think they're willing to tackle issues a lot of students wouldn't even touch .

I like Halea's legal research although it overwhelms me, and Zed's mission stories and smackdowns on GMOs, and when my personal heroes like Katya or Rating Pending weigh in at the reunions, I get warm fuzzy feelings.

But censoring an unofficial forum with perhaps two to three dozen active users because we don't all live the Honor Code seems to be about as silly as trying to block YouTube on campus (remember that?).

[Portia]

If the Board editors don't link to it and want to build a more 2015-tech-friendly platform like a Tumblr or reddit sub, and promote it, I think that's within their rights.

[Portia]

I hope this doesn't get people jumping down my throat or demanding lots of explanations (because I don't do well with either of those things) but I have been reading the Board Board since 2010, and from my perspective the general culture of questioning and in many cases opposing church culture (and sometimes church doctrine as well (yes, I know they are separate)) has definitely increased. I often find myself disagreeing with the opinions on here, but since I am really really bad at defending my positions, I pretty much never comment on things I disagree with, of which there are more now than when I first came here.

Also, sorry for all the long run-on sentences, it is how my brain thinks and I didn't feel like editing more.

For the record, I confused you with Integrating Editor, and I was very confused.

[TheBlackSheep]

I also felt completely unable to post anything on the abortion thread; I kind of preemptively assumed I would be attacked for my opinion there.

I'm in a very bad mood today and I wouldn't usually say this, but this entire thread bugs me. The same people agreeing about how nice and open minded you all are are the same people who have consistently told anyone who posts a conservative viewpoint that they're narrow-minded bigots until they all went away. It's easy to be nice once you've bullied everyone who disagrees with you into not posting about how they disagree with you. I know most of you have felt similar feelings of being unable to express your opinions when you were in the minority and the majority conservative viewpoint told you you were bad people for having liberal opinions, and I'm disappointed in how quickly the confirmation bias of the majority has re-emerged in the opposite direction.

So don't let the general consensus on this thread lull you all into thinking that you're so open-minded and tolerant to other viewpoints and that anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaking "disagreement" or "leaving the bubble for the first time" for "intolerance." Because there has been real intolerance.

Zedability, I don't know you in real life, but I have heard lovely things about you so I am trying to take what you said with a grain of salt. However, I am offended by your post and I would like clarification.

I started this thread, and I've said I think we are generally friendly. I can only assume you are talking about me when you say the same people who are saying we're nice are also the bullies. I started this thread because I really want to know what we have done and especially what I have done to contribute to that kind of perception, so I'm glad you are being honest about how you feel about it. I really do want to know. I don't think your generalizations are helpful, however.

I have talked to a lot of people behind the scenes about this as well. yayfulness sent that thread to me before he posted it and I reread it and remembered how uncomfortable it made me at the time. I was incredibly relieved to read what I had written then because of how uncomfortable it made me, on both sides. It was interesting and hard to see all of the nyms that used to post that don't anymore. I will also cede that on the abortion thread I went outside of my normal good manners by a bit. I did use all caps for a (long) phrase and perhaps my tone wasn't as kind as it could have been. For that I apologize. I admit that I was not thinking about people who did not agree with me at the time, and I do try to do that.

I do not see myself as a bully. That being said, I did ask for feedback and I do want it. If you think we are bullies or that I am a bully, please let us know how that is true. The generalizations are really hard to swallow. I really am interested in constructive feedback, however.

[TheBlackSheep]

Please read the above with an interested, neutral tone. It is not meant to be aggressive or passive-aggressive in the least.

[Cognoscente]

I'm actually surprised no one has made /r/100hourboard.

[Zedability]

Honestly, I am just having an awful day and should probably not be allowed on the Internet right now.

You were not one of the people I had in mind with that post, if I'm going by the broad general language I used there. Everyone goes outside of their normal good manners sometimes and anyone who is part of the majority opinion in a community reinforces that without meaning to sometimes. But yes, I would not describe you as a bully.

I'm not really in a good mental state to provide specific examples or constructive feedback so I'm going to log off now.

[Whistler]

yeah, posts like the abortion thread where people make really passionate posts and then more people pretty much agree make it less friendly for discussion. I didn't mind because I agreed with "our" "consensus". I probably shouldn't have posted that I agreed, because it didn't add anything to the discussion and just made it seem like other people would be cads for disagreeing. But I feel like the whole point of The Boardboard is to have a place where we can be contrary and argue with writers on the 100 HB because it's not done there!

Quite frankly, I don't mind the homogeneity of liberal opinions on The Boardboard; I feel it balances out all the really conservative religious stuff I get on the 100 HB and on FB. I can whine or gripe about LDS culture all I want here and no one will have a cow about it. I can't do that anywhere else. I think I might be less polite here sometimes because it's sort of anonymous, but I love that I can let that aspect of my personality out sometimes.

Real questions, not just for you and not trying to be a jerk...I actually am curious.

If you disagree with the writing on the board, why do you follow it?
And
What is it that makes you enjoy disagreeing/arguing on theboardboard as apposed to an exmo reddit?

Hmm, why do I read the Board? It's a site I used to contribute to and I want to see it succeed. I don't disagree with everything there, but sometimes I want to pursue an issue more or I'm curious about what other people think about it. But sometimes it's easy for me to just say "ugh, I disagree with this!" (vent) instead of saying something that would encourage intelligent dialogue.

Also, there are many things I read on the Board that I genuinely like. I also like knowing "what the kids are into these days." I admit I don't read everything that posts, and I follow The Boardboard a lot more closely than the 100 HB.

I like The Boardboard a lot better than any of the feminist groups on FB. Feminist Mormon Housewives (FMH) just has SO many members that it's hard to keep up with all the posts, and sometimes people can get mean about whether or not your billingual kindergarten should celebrate Day of the Dead. When people get passionate here, most of the time I can understand where they're coming from, probably since I'm more invested in them as people.

I used to follow the Sunstone FB page for a while, but it was so negative about the church so often, it felt like it was hurting my faith more than it was helping it (I love Sunstone magazine though!). And yes,, I am an active LDS--all the more reason I want interact with people other than the ones I see at church all the time .

I wonder if another Boardboard party is in order? Or would that just make things feel more cliquey?

[TheBlackSheep]

If you disagree with the writing on the board, why do you follow it?
And
What is it that makes you enjoy disagreeing/arguing on theboardboard as apposed to an exmo reddit?

Well, here's the thing.

Okay, this is going to get a little dramatic, I can feel it. None of this is meant to be self-important or blustering, I swear. It's just that my life back then was kind of dramatic and that as a result the Board and its community are REALLY important to me. I wrote for the Board for almost two years, as I've said. It's been a while (five years, yikes), so I get not understanding why I for one am still invested.

When I started writing for the Board, I was easily the most liberal member. Before me, just a few writers had ever copped to struggling with mental illness (A.A. Melyngoch had a couple of answers, a proofreader writing under Desdemona had at least one answer, and TINMAN mentioned in passing that he had had some struggles as part of wonderful answers). Other writers had given great answers about mental health concerns (The SuperShrink comes to mind) but they were written from a more fact-based space, which is wonderful. Any other answers where writers tried to address it in a more personal way were written under throwaway nyms, per my recollection. There had also never been an out writer for the Board, and the majority of answers about gay issues were pretty... well, gay-bashy. It was an earlier time, before the Church's website and before gay marriage was anywhere near as accepted as it is currently, but that was the state of things.

In the summer of 2008 I, to be blunt, attempted suicide and I could not imagine returning to BYU. Nobody knew what was happening with me and I was not about to share. (Another dramatic story: when I was 12 or so, I had a bunch of friends at school who all self-harmed. I knew everything about each of them but they knew nothing about me to the point where they all called me mom. That's how closed off I was. I couldn't even be emo while I was being emo.) Certainly nobody knew I was attracted to women. I had been introduced to the Board in 2006 (by FCSM's sister, no less) but I had never read it regularly until after my suicide attempt. I don't even know why I started. A lot of down-time at work, maybe. When I applied to be a Board writer that fall, I did so because I loved the whacky answers and the incredible, incredible research answers and the culture. I mostly did so, however, with the idea of providing more personal answers to mental health and other emotionally difficult questions.

Writing for the Board was a tremendous growing experience for me. I forced myself to be more authentic and more honest. Doing that put me in touch with all of the other people like me at BYU. Soon I had monthly groups going on and dinners and I was getting secret ice cream with people all the time. It taught me how many people truly were living lives of quiet desperation. People nobody knows about because they don't think they can tell anybody else. Eventually I started creating distance between myself and the Church, so I found those people too. Having doubts about the Church while being a BYU student is an incredibly lonely experience that no one wants to talk about. I never came out while I was an active Board writer, but if I could do it over I would. Through my (really incredibly moderate) answers on homosexuality, etc. I found all kinds of scared LGBTQI* students. I made some of my most lasting friendships that way, and the other writers themselves were some of my greatest lifelines during some of the very hardest times of my life. Most of all, though, it was the "secret" frightened communities of BYU to which I was now privy that made me passionate about the Board and its community. (Remember, this was pre-USGA and it was a time when I was regularly told I wasn't praying hard enough and that's why I was depressed [misdiagnosed for at least part of that time as bipolar II].)

I know that those questions are just one part of the Board and they are not what the founders of the Board probably intended. Due to its anonymous nature, however, that is one important kind of question the Board answers. I know I pushed the Board boundaries, and thank goodness for the editors of my time who let me. I know that at least one new probie after I wrote was not hired because she too closely resembled me in one important way and there were new editors. (They did what they had to do. I know they were really struggling to stay sponsored at that time. I threw a hissy fit I now regret even if I don't regret the emotions behind it.) I know that writers after me wouldn't be able to get away with some of the answers I wrote. That's the nature of the beast. Those afraid little communities, however, are still out there. I still hear from their members from time to time. How heart breaking is it that after years I still get emails from scared college students about my hopelessly inadequate answers?

So yeah, I care deeply about the Board, its community, and the Board Board. It, its writers, and its readers pulled me through really hard times, and learning I wasn't alone meant learning about all the other scared and even disenfranchised people out there whose legitimate needs (which are not their fault) may be addressed less well by a conservative university and its approved publications than it would be by even slightly more liberal points of view. (I'm not talking politics when I used "conservative" and "liberal" in that sentence.) I admit that this is my bias and this is the part of the Board I care about most, though I love all parts of the Board.

I was a popular writer when I wrote, and I know that so I won't pretend to have been too picked on, but I also had a vocal mass of haters. I was written off as a feminist, a gay sympathizer, a liberal. I'm sure there were things thought and said about my mental illness, too, as people said those things to my face at that time. Writing what I wrote sometimes made me physically ill out of the worry and nervousness. And I'm pretty sure that whole Gay Blade thing here (which I continue to be traumatized by... I couldn't even reread it last night when I was digging into the archives over this thread) was directed at me and things I had written. In fact, I'll stop hedging. I am sure it was. I said some things here I am not proud of out of fear. I do know what that feels like. I don't want to contribute to the other side feeling this way. Hence the thread.

[TheBlackSheep]

And, for what it's worth, I don't disagree with everything that is posted on the Board. There are brilliant, brilliant answers. And even though I might disagree with almost everything Halawhatever (as an example) says, I respect the hell out of the way he says most things. That being said, some things, as Whistler said, deserve more digging into, and I think some things are just plain wrong or insensitive sometimes, at least in regard to the populations I care most about.