83352 - The Board Apostasy Board (I'm joking, not hating)

[TheBlackSheep]

And Whistler, I'd DEFINITELY come to a party.

[Whistler]

TBS, I think it might be hard to point to one post and say "this is someone being a bully."

Here's some language I've found in posts that might be perceived as dismissive. See how I'm hedging? I'm nervous to bring this up but I think looking at actual language is most helpful. I don't think any individual post was "out of line." I'm trying to show what posts come off as passionate and hence, difficult to dialogue with, even though I agree with them all:

You could tell it was written by someone who has zero understanding of the struggles that LGBT individuals often face.

http://www.theboardboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3680

I just don't know why folks feel the need to dissect this. Everybody's got their own set of morals and can decide how they want and why does anybody else need to think about whether their choices are okay or whether they might make the same choice?

http://www.theboardboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3664

Can I just say how much I HATE the idea that one shouldn't develop "strong emotional attachments" outside of one's spouse?

http://www.theboardboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3677

[Portia]

For the record, I find /r/exmormon to be a bit overwrought and not overlapping much with my interests (not really into cheap beer, my wife hasn't left me, my immediate family is actually pretty chill, and reddit as a whole can be a lot more male-centric).

/shrug

[Tally M.]

Maybe it's that sometimes certain threads/topics turn into echo chambers. It's probably unintentional, but it means that any mainstreams who would like to chime in feel uncomfortable doing so.

[TheBlackSheep]

TBS, I think it might be hard to point to one post and say "this is someone being a bully."

Oh, I'd agree. And, for me, it's enough that anyone has said, "I don't feel like I can talk all the time," to make me reevaluate and be more careful. I just still think criticism which is more constructive rather than more generalized is more helpful and less likely to cause emotional fallout.

I also agree with the quotes you picked (hello, my quote in the middle) and on the hedging.

[TheBlackSheep]

Maybe it's that sometimes certain threads/topics turn into echo chambers. It's probably unintentional, but it means that any mainstreams who would like to chime in feel uncomfortable doing so.

I can understand that. I can keep my eye on that and make sure I'm not contributing to it. Sometimes, though, the best way to shut down that effect is to speak up. I don't mean to further pick on the people who feel they are being mistreated by saying that. I can take accountability on my part of that and try to improve, but it's hard to know where people are if they aren't giving feedback in those instances.

[Marduk]

I'll go ahead and say that I'm fairly certain that I'm one of the people referred to as being a bully. I don't know that I agree with the characterization, but feelings are certainly valid, and so I would want to know what I did/do/said/typed in the past gave that impression, and how I can avoid it in the future. I know it is very difficult to try and have a rational discussion with someone who you feel is a bully, as this feeling arises from feeling like one's opinions and ideas are routinely ignored or belittled, so I'm left with self-analysis as best I can and trying to dissect the ideas on my own.

I've spent a lot of time analyzing the way I interrogate and discuss ideas, especially online, over the years. I have a few conclusions, but many more questions than conclusions. I only bring this up as part of using my own experience as a way of generalizing to the opinions and milieu here on the boardboard, to see what we can do to ensure my personal goals here of 1)ensuring that people feel comfortable and welcome here and 2)ensuring that people feel free to express opinions and discuss ideas.

The first problem is that number 2 frequently conflicts with number 1. People are not threatened by their own opinions, even when expressed by others. The most comfortable space for most people is one in which nothing challenges their viewpoints (although for me this gets boring quite quickly, and I imagine many others feel the same.) People are also less able to see personal attacks or aggression or other generally socially unacceptable interactions when they are couched in opinions they agree with overall (thanks to Whistler for pointing things out that people might have found aggressive.) So the question becomes, how do we have ideas that are strongly presented without making people feel as though they cannot present alternative ideas and thoughts?

Some jumbled thoughts that have crossed my mind that I haven't fully processed yet, especially in regards to this post in particular: I'm a philosophy student, and used to debating. I know my ideas tend to be presented strongly, and people have expressed that they don't feel comfortable, intellectually, disagreeing with me for fear of looking foolish. But should I hedge my comments and try to make them weaker in order to not intimidate? How can I negotiate that? Another: I am male. Most people here are female. Girls and women are socialized to avoid conflict more than boys and men. Does this influence my perception of conflict here (i.e., that I see no conflict where others perceive it?) Another: this board is almost exclusively LDS or former LDS. Within Mormonism conflict is seen as evil, and consensus is strived for. Does this cause us to have confirmation bias in regards to the amount of conflict on the board?

These are all things I've thought about for a while, but I'd love to hear anyone outside of my head offer their thoughts on them, or any other ideas about how to balance those two goals, because I think we can agree that we want those two things out of this board (in addition to other things.)

[Zedability]

I guess my issue is that I perceive you as assigning negative or dismissive motives to people for having the opinions they have when they disagree with you. For instance, from your post above, I feel as though you're assigning my discomfort to "within Mormonism conflict is seen as evil" and "girls and women are socialized to avoid conflict more than boys and men." In general, it's not a nice feeling to feel like someone is assuming things about you when they barely know you instead of listening to you. I certainly don't see conflict as evil and anyone who knows me in real life knows I'm not shy about jumping into an argument, despite my "gender conditioning."

Meanwhile, you explain your strongly worded posts as being a result of the fact that you are "a philosophy student, and used to debating." I also consider myself to be quite intellectual and enjoy a good debate, but I feel like in multiple threads, your posts can come across as "I'm just more intellectual than you and that's why you're offended," which can come across as dismissing someone else's opinion as being a result of being less intelligent than you, less informed than you, lacking life experience compared to you, or less open to new ideas than you.

I think it's quite possible that you don't mean any of these things to come across that way, but I have consistently felt that way over the course of my involvement with the Boardboard. I think in general, the liberal community can tend to dismiss conservative ideas, especially socially conservative ideas, as being the result of being less educated or intellectually-minded, and it's possible that you're unconsciously creating resonance with this cultural mindset, even if you don't mean to perpetuate it.

You've also said previously that you've consciously tried to make the Boardboard a more liberal place. In a lot of ways, this is good - I do think people lack forums to express liberal ideas in the Church and it's great that the Boardboard is a safe place for that - but this goal of yours can sometimes come across a little heavy-handed.

For myself, I tend to hold more conservative/orthodox doctrinal views, but more liberal social views on the same issues, and it can be a bit of a paradox and a contradiction even to myself. I want to stand up for both aspects of what I believe, but I feel as though when I express a conservative doctrinal view, it's automatically assumed that I have certain motives for holding that view, that I haven't looked at the opposing view, or that I support certain policies or act in certain ways that I definitely disagree with and think are wrong. In other words, I feel like when I express a conservative idea, your responses carry the implication that I'm a certain kind of person that I'm not, and that I don't want to be. This isn't all the time, and it isn't just you, and you may not even mean it that way, but that's what comes across, and it frustrates me that I feel like I can express my liberal ideas freely and without worrying, but when I want to express my conservative ideas, I have to triple-edit the draft of my answer and throw in a lot of disclaimers to make it absolutely clear that I don't believe X or Y along with Z. In other words, I feel like I receive the benefit of the doubt if I express myself poorly in a liberal post, but I feel like you make assumptions about me or attack my character in subtle ways in response to a poorly-worded conservative post.

[bobtheenchantedone]

This conversation is super interesting to me because I have been on this board FOREVER. I am one of the oldest members still active, having registered only seven months after the board was created. I have the third most posts. I've been an admin since 2008 and am currently the only active day-to-day admin (LJ was always more just the technical side of things and Marduk is a mod, not full admin).

One thing I've noticed in this whole effing long time, especially as I look back on some older threads as I've been doing today, is that a lot of us who have stayed over the years all started out a lot more conservative/orthodox and gradually moved toward the liberal/unorthodox (or even ex) side of things. As we have changed, the bb changed with us, because we were its active members. So the accusation of "infiltration" is actually hilariously wrong. (Unless you think of it as our future selves playing the long game...?)

[Zedability]

(Unless you think of it as our future selves playing the long game...?)

Lamest use of a time machine ever

[bobtheenchantedone]

Here's my response to your last paragraph, Zed, though I'm not Marduk:

When someone posts a poorly-worded liberal opinion, I can fill in any gaps with my own thoughts and research on the subject.

When someone posts a poorly-worded conservative opinion, I hear FOX News or my intelligent but somewhat ignorant brother and assume that the person is working from the same lack of facts/avoidance of real thought/willful misunderstanding.

It's not fair of me, I suppose, but that's what happens.

[Marduk]

Thank you for your response, Zed. I will spend some time thinking about the things you've said. I really appreciate it, especially given your feelings about the way I respond. It is difficult to get a response from anyone in that kind of position, given their feelings, so what you've said is quite valuable to me.

The thoughts I gave were not fully formed, as I said. I perceive these feelings about me from certain members of this community, but I have so little to go on that I spend lots of time analyzing things that are, at best, a very small portion of a much larger picture, or at worst, totally irrelevant.

Another thought that crossed my mind, along the lines of the party suggestion (as an aside, I have had more than one person tell me, after a long time of interacting online and finally meeting in person, that I am far less of a jerk than I seem) is that we on this board, and especially me, need to talk more about more mundane issues to connect more as a community. I have been guilty of only really commenting on things I feel strongly about, which usually tend to be hot-button issues anyways. Maybe knowing more about me will help people to feel less personally attacked when I engage on other issues? Again, these are just thoughts that I'm jotting down and hoping to get feedback on, not something that I think is a definitive answer.

[Imogen]

It's funny because having never been Mormon, though being very interested in all of you as people, I've watched many of you become more "liberal" in your thoughts and attitudes, and yet it just has made perfect sense to me watching that transition. Like, to me you're the same people I "met" way back in 2005? 2006? or later.

I've felt bullied on this board, but not by any of you who currently post. Vorpal drove me to absolute RAGES. I thought he was rude and condescending to even the people he agreed with, so I bounced for a little while, but I missed the people I liked a lot. I also decided it wasn't worth getting that angry at someone I would never meet in real life, so I just learned to ignore what he posted. I know ignoring one person is easier than ignoring whole threads, but that's what worked to save my sanity.

That Gay Blade was stuff and nonsense. I'd use stronger language, but I try not to curse on this board.

Zed, I thought your post on the abortion thread was well written and gave a good sense of your very complex feelings on the matter. I'd love to see more posts like that. I don't think anything you've ever said has made you seem less intellectual by any means. I'd count you as one of my top five favorite posters here because I can tell you care about how your posts make others feel, and that's a rare trait on the internet!

Ultimately, I think many of our former posters are now busy with families and jobs and those of us who have stuck around probably are a combination of people with more flexible schedules, a greater willingness to devote time to this board, and people who tend to like each other.

[Zedability]

So yeah after having my caffeine and zumba I would like to apologize for my earlier post. The feelings were very real but the way I chose to express it was rude and went way beyond what needed to be said or what is accurate of any individual user, and I think I just wanted to make someone else to feel as upset as I was in that moment, which is a bad way of dealing with things that aren't even related to the Boardboard.

I would especially like to apologize to TBS because I really wasn't intending for that post to be directed at you at all and it was insensitive of me to not consider that you were the one initiating this thread and that it would come across that way, especially since you did it in the spirit of inclusiveness. Thanks for your kind response.

[TheBlackSheep]

Marduk, I'm mulling things over.

bob, I do that too sometimes, and I think it's our responsibility to take accountability for that and adjust for our biases as best we can. I am glad you verbalized it because I would have been too much of a wuss to be that honest on that particular thought. Also, the BoardBoard history was interesting... I had never really considered any of that before.

Imogen, you know you are one of my favorites ever. I'm glad you came back.

Zed, thank you for the apology. I know what those hard days are like and I should probably have assumed better because you are always so careful about people's feelings. I didn't mean to call you out western-style or anything. One of the best things to come out of my most recent relationship was the ability to ask questions and not make assumptions and to tell someone when I'm upset, so that's all it was. Like Imogen (and Portia on the actual thread), I appreciated your nuanced views on the abortion thread and I like having you around for just that reason. I like having my views challenged (nicely) so I'm glad you are here and contribute. I'll reply to the rest of your thoughts there when I have a bit more time.

[NovemberEast]

What is it that makes you enjoy disagreeing/arguing on theboardboard as apposed to an exmo reddit?

For the record, I'm 99% certain that Whistler is a practicing, active Mormon. Which I think is the point.

Good to know. I am relatively new and haven't really figured out who is what here. But I also meant that question to anyone applicable (I said "not just for you").

[Rainbow_connection]

I think I might be less polite here sometimes because it's sort of anonymous.

This made me laugh because I think of you as unfailingly polite and kind.

[NovemberEast]

So the accusation of "infiltration" is actually hilariously wrong. (Unless you think of it as our future selves playing the long game...?)

I think it's funny because I, as someone new, feel like the infiltrator.

[NovemberEast]

If you disagree with the writing on the board, why do you follow it?
And
What is it that makes you enjoy disagreeing/arguing on theboardboard as apposed to an exmo reddit?

Well, here's the thing.

Okay, this is going to get a little dramatic, I can feel it. None of this is meant to be self-important or blustering, I swear. It's just that my life back then was kind of dramatic and that as a result the Board and its community are REALLY important to me. I wrote for the Board for almost two years, as I've said. It's been a while (five years, yikes), so I get not understanding why I for one am still invested.

It's clear how important the board is to you and I can certainly understand how you'd feel dramatic talking about the reasons. I like to think that when something in my past seems dramatic, it means I'm moving on. And that's a good feeling.

[Zedability]

Here's my response to your last paragraph, Zed, though I'm not Marduk:

When someone posts a poorly-worded liberal opinion, I can fill in any gaps with my own thoughts and research on the subject.

When someone posts a poorly-worded conservative opinion, I hear FOX News or my intelligent but somewhat ignorant brother and assume that the person is working from the same lack of facts/avoidance of real thought/willful misunderstanding.

It's not fair of me, I suppose, but that's what happens.

I do understand that, because I think everyone does that to some extent. But it does make it intimidating to post something more conservative, because people are going to start treating you like you're ignorant or a Fox news anchor and it's this feeling that you either have to explain yourself perfectly the first time or there's no recovery. It's hard for me because I'm a perfectionist and I hate offending people on a personal level (although I have no problem with disagreement), and it's hard for people who aren't confident in their written communication skills but want to express their opinions all the same.