83352 - The Board Apostasy Board (I'm joking, not hating)

[Emiliana]

(Unless you think of it as our future selves playing the long game...?)

Lamest use of a time machine ever

+1

[Integrating Editor]

Why do I read the Board? I found it sometime in my early teens, and it became a huge part of my life. I was severely mentally ill and intensely introverted. I also knew that I was part of the LGBT community, even if I wasn't ready to admit how. The Black Sheep was writing when I got into it, and she quickly became one of my heroes. I frequently felt that she was speaking to me personally, telling me that I had reason to hope, to think I might have a future worth living.

Other writers also became my heroes: Katya, Laser Jock, and Misaneroth are perhaps the strongest examples. Board writers taught me both random trivia and significant religious and life lessons, and they made me laugh. They brought some light into a pretty dark life. Even the writers I regularly disagree with keep one of my favorite institutions thriving.

As for the exmormon reddit, I'm a temple-recommend-holding, every-meeting-attending, even fairly-well-respected-in-my-ward member of the Church who just happens to wear ties to Relief Society. The range of political positions and orthodoxy/activity here makes me feel a lot more comfortable than in many other forums.

The threads about me being trans might be some of the ones the reader objected to. I suppose some people would feel uncomfortable jumping in if it meant saying things that could be seen as a direct attack on me. I don't know if there's anything I could or should have done there to make it more comfortable for the orthodox.

[Emiliana]

As the one who started the abortion thread, I felt compelled to go back and look at what I'd said, how I'd said it, and what I could have done differently.

My second post about guilt and confirmation bias was possibly a bit too bitter/anti-religion for this forum, and I apologize for that. Sometime I might make a dramatic post (a la Black Sheep's ) explaining my history with religion and why I sometimes have the feelings towards it that I do, but without context I think that post could have been alienating to those who are still religiously inclined.

[Whistler]

So yeah after having my caffeine and zumba I would like to apologize for my earlier post. The feelings were very real but the way I chose to express it was rude and went way beyond what needed to be said or what is accurate of any individual user, and I think I just wanted to make someone else to feel as upset as I was in that moment, which is a bad way of dealing with things that aren't even related to the Boardboard.

I would especially like to apologize to TBS because I really wasn't intending for that post to be directed at you at all and it was insensitive of me to not consider that you were the one initiating this thread and that it would come across that way, especially since you did it in the spirit of inclusiveness. Thanks for your kind response.

I'm sorry I was like "ugh, I like things the way they are"! I like you and want to be more welcoming to you.

[NovemberEast]

The threads about me being trans might be some of the ones the reader objected to. I suppose some people would feel uncomfortable jumping in if it meant saying things that could be seen as a direct attack on me. I don't know if there's anything I could or should have done there to make it more comfortable for the orthodox.

That's a good point. But it's sad if it's true because this could be a great opportunity for the reader to learn how to interact with other active trans members. Learning and practicing such things could be of great benefit to the reader, you, and others like you.

Which brought me to think of another thing I've encountered on the board. If I had something positive to say regarding how someone like Integrating Editor lives the gospel, meant in kindness, I still worry it would set someone off. For example, I could say, "Hey that's great that you're trying to do the right thing, being active in church..etc...etc...!" or something offhand like that. And the intended reader could take it like I'm being patronizing while someone else who has fully left the church might be upset I'm saying that going to church is the "right thing." Right or wrong, those are the things that go through my head when I post here. I'm not sure if that's a personal defensiveness problem or really the tone of some posts.

[Whistler]

sometimes I too have a hard time posting positive encouragement without sounding patronizing. Does anyone have tips?

[S.A.M.]

I would place myself in the conservative, active, practicing Mormon category, and I very much disagree with Blargh - the Board Board is a friendly place. You will be called out on your opinions and ideas here, and need to be able to defend them, but will generally be respected the hell out of, especially by Marduk.

Why do I keep coming back? Because I love the community here and the connection to an amazing time of my life. Because the Board Board does challenge my viewpoints. It is rarely boring around here. The Board Board lets me see so many things from a perspective I never would get otherwise.

[TheBlackSheep]

sometimes I too have a hard time posting positive encouragement without sounding patronizing. Does anyone have tips?

I don't know if I come off as patronizing or not (let me know if I do) but I think it helps if you only state the facts or that you phrase the praise from their values and not from yours. Example: "It's wonderful that you have accepted your LGBT identity and that you can still find a place in a community that matters to you. I imagine that would be hard." Or something. When I worked with kids I was taught to avoid putting your own value judgement on things (so, I would say, "You were soft with your friend!" rather than, "You are so nice and wonderful because you were friendly!") and I try to apply that to how I talk to adults.

As for why I haven't gone to, say, the ex-Mormon Reddit, many ex-Mormon spaces on the internet are, unfortunately, bitter, angry places which are filled with people who recently left the Church. I was never all that bitter or angry so they didn't even work for me when I was fresh out, much less now that I am six years out.

[TheBlackSheep]

Also, Integrating Editor, I think you are a badass of the highest order. Just sayin'.

[bobtheenchantedone]

Here's my response to your last paragraph, Zed, though I'm not Marduk:

When someone posts a poorly-worded liberal opinion, I can fill in any gaps with my own thoughts and research on the subject.

When someone posts a poorly-worded conservative opinion, I hear FOX News or my intelligent but somewhat ignorant brother and assume that the person is working from the same lack of facts/avoidance of real thought/willful misunderstanding.

It's not fair of me, I suppose, but that's what happens.

I do understand that, because I think everyone does that to some extent. But it does make it intimidating to post something more conservative, because people are going to start treating you like you're ignorant or a Fox news anchor and it's this feeling that you either have to explain yourself perfectly the first time or there's no recovery. It's hard for me because I'm a perfectionist and I hate offending people on a personal level (although I have no problem with disagreement), and it's hard for people who aren't confident in their written communication skills but want to express their opinions all the same.

True true. I've also been working on seeing others' opinions in an understanding light, even when they're poorly worded.

I'll also point out that I have said some pretty awful things on here, both by stating stupid/ignorant opinions and poorly wording better opinions. I got better at expressing myself by making those mistakes and having others point out what was wrong, and then writing posts that were better. It's a tough and embarrassing process, but I've always been one to learn by doing rather than study.

[Portia]

For the record, I think Brother Rubik's answer was actually fairly balanced and didn't strike the same overly negative tone that the question did.

[TheBlackSheep]

I'd second that.

[Emiliana]

Thirded. Can I just say how much I like Frere Rubrik as a writer? If you're reading this, Frere, you should come say hi sometime!

[NovemberEast]

The ex mo reddit thread part of the question would be more applicable to those who aren't active anymore. But I'd suppose even then ex's may not all want the bitterness.

[Portia]

The ex mo reddit thread part of the question would be more applicable to those who aren't active anymore. But I'd suppose even then ex's may not all want the bitterness.

Seconded. However, I have met good friends and roommates through it, but those interactions tend to happen offline.

[bobtheenchantedone]

There also hasn't been a single new profile registered here since last December.

So... apparently this is kind of not true.

I was just made aware that more than one person had tried to create an account recently but it didn't work. I poked around on my end and found that several new accounts have been created in the past few months, but for some reason none of them were activated. I've activated them manually and, I think, solved the issue of why they weren't being activated in the first place.

[Craig Jessop]

I was one of the first on the BoardBoard. I was very active here for a long time. Most of you know me. I stopped contributing because I tired of being in the minority. It became a negative influence on me. I left because I got tired of having my orthodox beliefs openly mocked. It felt like there was no room for discussion, or for critical thought not fitting the Accepted Opinion. Weirdly, I have felt much more comfortable questioning and challenging the status quo inside the Church than in supposedly open-minded Internet forums, including this one. So there's that.

[Arcaiden]

Just so you know where I'm coming from, the main reason why I come here is to comment on LGBT issues that come up on the board. For the record, there are other issues that I actually agree with the more conservative commentators on. The recent abortion question is one such example. With that in mind, just realize that there might be more of us on the same page than you realize.

I have one question though. Why do I have to couch my language in fluffy nicey nice terms to not be considered a "bully"? To me, most of these complaints boil down to people being unable to deal with criticism of their beliefs. Rather than actually address the issues or underlying concern, they simply fall back and claim persecution. Do we really need another church approved and correlated forum? I honestly like the idea of having a place where board questions can be discussed without having to meet the requirements of their sponsor. We shouldn't have to tip-toe around the honest answer because someone in the Honor Code office might get offended.

Finally, if I come off as being very passionate about LGBT issues, it's because I am, and it's because I'm honestly at a loss as to how the prevent the endless struggles of LGBT students at BYU. It's better now than it used to be, LOTS better, to be sure. But there are still gay students who think it's a good idea for them to get married. There are still students there struggling with their family relationships, with depression, and with having their academic standing revoked because of who they love. And to me, it all seems so pointless and unnecessary. So yes, I will happily call out board writiers as having "zero understanding of the struggles that LGBT face" when they continue to post answers that are traumatizing to that community.

[Whistler]

look, I agree with you: LGBT/QUILTBAG students at BYU have a really, really hard time because of homophobia from other Mormons (homophobia which isn't doctrinally grounded, but probably comes from not having or knowing about LGBT friends). But if you want to convince someone of your position, it's more effective to avoid ad hominem attacks like "you have zero understanding," even if it's true.

[Zedability]

look, I agree with you: LGBT/QUILTBAG students at BYU have a really, really hard time because of homophobia from other Mormons (homophobia which isn't doctrinally grounded, but probably comes from not having or knowing about LGBT friends). But if you want to convince someone of your position, it's more effective to avoid ad hominem attacks like "you have zero understanding," even if it's true.

For instance, I really want to be a good ally to the LGBT community, in and outside of BYU. But like most people in a position of privilege, I have blind spots. And I really appreciate it when people point those out. But there's a difference between saying "Zedability I found this thing in your answer really offensive because reasons" vs. saying "you have zero understanding" and acting like I'm willfully being ignorant or that I don't want to learn. (I don't actually remember any times we've clashed on this issue, I'd just rather give myself as the example of the board writer who wrote a bad answer than sluff it off on the other writers; I'm not offended by you or your post here.)

I understand that trying to make BYU more LGBT friendly is a super frustrating endeavor sometimes and that ignorant posts are understandably very upsetting when you've been involved in that, but the way you respond does make a difference to how open people are to your criticisms and how much understanding we come to together. That's why I'd like to see the Boardboard become more inclusive to other viewpoints; I know that I, for one, am much more likely to admit I'm wrong when I don't feel defensive or attacked.