Mean Boys

[Craig Jessop]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/83619/

She claims that 100% of the single men in her life view her as "too serious and not 'fun' enough to befriend, label you as unattractive, undesirable, and undatable, and in all ways consider [her] beneath them."

I think the questioner might ask herself if these things are true? Either that or this is a terrible exaggeration asked in a moment of angst (and we've all been there). In my experience, people--male and female--who are honestly disliked by close to 100% of the people around them are, in fact, truly awful humans. If this is not the case, my heart truly goes out to this person. However, blaming it on priesthood holders as a general principle is extremely offensive.

[Portia]

It was unclear to me if this wording was to distinguish from non-Mormon men or was a synecdoche for all men. What do we think?

[Whistler]

it's weird because every time the questioner talks about it, they say "Priesthood holders." If they were using it as a synonym for men it seems like it wouldn't be so specific.

[Portia]

it's weird because every time the questioner talks about it, they say "Priesthood holders." If they were using it as a synonym for men it seems like it wouldn't be so specific.

Yes, I'm leaning towards the theory that this is a woman who is specifically encountering problems in her dating life with Mormon Men. Another retired writer shared this article, which I think could give some insight from active LDS women and the struggles they face in that arena.

Still, I agree with Craig that she is painting with a rather broad brush—when I think of Mormon men in my life, including colleagues, family members, and friends, I think that she is wayyy overstating the case. (Frankly, I wonder if she is unattractive in her personal presentation, either through a low concern towards appearance or a negative attitude that is picked up on.)

She doesn't HAVE to date "Priesthood Holders" and maybe dating outside the Church would give her a confidence boost. But she likely will have to interact with them and an extremely negative attitude will likely do her no favors.

[Portia]

In my experience, people--male and female--who are honestly disliked by close to 100% of the people around them are, in fact, truly awful humans.

This is harsh but I actually 100% agree.

[NovemberEast]

Maybe she is saying "priesthood holders" because she expects more from them? While she probably should (in a perfect world..HA) be able to expect that, it's just not helpful to think that way. Being a "priesthood holder" doesn't make you a perfectly nice person any more than the opposite.

I'm betting it's just a moment of angst.

[Portia]

Maybe she is saying "priesthood holders" because she expects more from them?

I won't go into my (full) rant about the "learned behavior" of learned helplessness. But seriously, I don't think it's healthy or normal to derive one's self-esteem as a hetero woman from the power/prestige/worth that you perceive you acquire, through some kind of social osmosis, from men. To me, that's the point of feminism: to build your own identity as a woman, and if you so choose, to bring that identity/esteem/interests into a relationship with a man.

I have a fairly wide experience of dating across the spectrum, and in my opinion, especially in the Wasatch Front, many Mormon women are socialized into a frothy-mouthed pursuit of a certain "type" of man: a professional degree, the right parents, "future bishop material" (ugh!). Um, not only is this vain and materialistic, it also seems to discount a lot of great guys both inside the Church and outside of it. I have no doubt that there exist LDS men with a sense of entitlement and who have poor interpersonal skills. (I have no doubt that men and women like that exist everywhere.)

But I think the #1 thing everyone, male and female, could do to improve their dating life is to have a better attitude. Not only towards the sex of your preference, just in general. And I do fear that socializing young girls from the age of 12 to be helpless in many ways is a bad way to get healthy adult relationships: and I think everyone should be able to pursue that as a goal!

Is there anything YW and RS leaders could do to improve women's self-reliance and genuine confidence? (Not the kind of "you're so speshul" talks that I know rub people the wrong way, because they're often fluffy and less-than-concrete.)

(And yeah, when you strike out several times in a row, you feel rant-y. I get it.)

[Portia]

My initial thoughts:

- Educational and career preparation. (My nondescript home ward produced several high-achieving women, and I think we had a lower-than-average number of lessons on being a housewife?)
- Less sexualizing of young adolescents by an over-emphasis on dress codes, more emphasis on personal development across a wide array of personal skills (one of the best ways to keep young teens out of sexual trouble? Keeping them busy in activities they have genuine passion for).
- Less emphasis on being a homemaker and thus incurring the economic need for a breadwinner from the age of 18
- More emphasis on what makes for good marriages for marriage-age adults, as proven by social science, rather than fighting a losing battle against other kinds of secular family formation.

I don't see this list as definitive or prescriptive but maybe it could start some ideas for any people here in a position to teach or mentor young women.

[NovemberEast]

Portia, I'm hoping you didn't misunderstand me. I don't think it's ok for her to put priesthood holders on some kind of gross pedestal, but she probably has. blechhh.

[Portia]

Portia, I'm hoping you didn't misunderstand me. I don't think it's ok for her to put priesthood holders on some kind of gross pedestal, but she probably has. blechhh.

Well, what can leaders of young women do to combat that?

[NovemberEast]

There are so many things. But it comes down to understanding that respect between the sexes should be mutual. Really absorbing this might help some girls realize the pedestal is a lie. It's such a ridiculous thing to say they should teach because it seems so very obvious to me. It wouldn't solve everything, but driving home that principal might help combat some of the symptoms.

I'm definitely out of touch because I must have had a very different experience in my young women group. Most of my leaders had degrees (many with advanced degrees), were at some point (if not currently) successful career-women with husbands on the same level, and it really showed in the way some touchy subjects were approached like chastity, dating, and marriage.

I didn't experience any of the "get married, have babies, bake a casserole, then quilt something" spiel in young women. Our activities had a wide range from car care (we were covered in grease after) and resume workshops to making french macarons and sewing jersey pencil skirts.

I think the young men leadership could help the situation too. I have a young man in my sunday school class who always wants to say the prayer in class because "I'll get a hot wife if I say more prayers."

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I found out his YM leader told him that to convince him to say the prayer one sunday. effective and ineffective all at once.

I was filled with the fiery rage of a thousand suns. And then I told him that girls would not find his attitude attractive.

When I asked my husband what his experience was like in YM he said he only remembered the stuff involving camping. So...meh.

[NerdGirl]

In my experience, people--male and female--who are honestly disliked by close to 100% of the people around them are, in fact, truly awful humans.

This is harsh but I actually 100% agree.

I also tend to agree with this to a large extent.

It's also possible that the questioner is maybe young and/or hasn't moved around a lot and her only priesthood holder pool comes from one really crappy BYU or YSA ward. There do seem to be some wards that are just totally full of really cliquey and mean people.

[Portia]

I'm definitely out of touch because I must have had a very different experience in my young women group. Most of my leaders had degrees (many with advanced degrees), were at some point (if not currently) successful career-women with husbands on the same level, and it really showed in the way some touchy subjects were approached like chastity, dating, and marriage.

I didn't experience any of the "get married, have babies, bake a casserole, then quilt something" spiel in young women. Our activities had a wide range from car care (we were covered in grease after) and resume workshops to making french macarons and sewing jersey pencil skirts.

If you don't mind my asking, where was this? This sounds like my freakin' dream ward. My home ward was full of unambitious losers of both sexes (has since gentrified, but the quality of activities still seems very "meh").

[S.A.M.]

Come to Alaska, where our young women shoot guns for activities more than the young men do (and are better shots).

[Portia]

Haha I'm a bad representative of the state of Wyoming because I have never shot a gun and never will.

[NovemberEast]

If you don't mind my asking, where was this? This sounds like my freakin' dream ward. My home ward was full of unambitious losers of both sexes (has since gentrified, but the quality of activities still seems very "meh").

I don't mind since I don't live there anymore. Austin Texas, Barton Creek Ward.

I'm not sure how it is now, but the boundaries haven't changed much so I'm doubting the demographics have.