Unwanted kissing (84886)

[Rainbow_connection]

Luciana's answer to the make-out question had a really jarring element to me. When she told her friend that she was subjected to unwanted kissing, he told her it was just kissing and not a big deal. Maybe I'm just a sheltered Mormon, but to me being kissed unexpectedly, unwelcomly, and prolongedly sounds like a big deal. Is it really not to most people? I can see consensual/wanted kissing not necessarily carrying a lot of emotional weight or commitment, but the story just kind of made me uncomfortable.
On a related note, this is why we need affirmative consent. Or maybe not if it isn't a big deal to most people?

[Portia]

Luciana's answer to the make-out question had a really jarring element to me. When she told her friend that she was subjected to unwanted kissing, he told her it was just kissing and not a big deal. Maybe I'm just a sheltered Mormon, but to me being kissed unexpectedly, unwelcomly, and prolongedly sounds like a big deal. Is it really not to most people? I can see consensual/wanted kissing not necessarily carrying a lot of emotional weight or commitment, but the story just kind of made me uncomfortable.
On a related note, this is why we need affirmative consent. Or maybe not if it isn't a big deal to most people?

I almost asked a question about consent in Mormon culture. My first boyfriend definitely got way more handsy than I either expected or desired, but I certainly didn't have the framework at that age (about ten years ago!) to back down.

I agree that it's not just jarring, but anytime one uses the word "assault," there's a serious cultural problem.

(FWIW, I don't think this is any impugning of someone who wants to be flirtatious/kiss under the stars to their heart's content. If you can get affirmative consent from 15 different fellas, well, that's your choice and a good thing about NCMO is that, in my experience, there tends to be discussion beforehand about boundaries. But my one experience with Tinder didn't leave me with the best impression--nothing to do with physicality, everything to do with his lack of respect for me as an individual. Which goes into someone sticking their tongue down your throat sight unseen, I'm sure--it's disrespectful!)

[Whistler]

it's hard to say anything about the situation... I definitely think the guy she met on the bus was sexually aggressive and she was not prepared for that.

[Concorde]

I disagree with most of the writers who believe that kissing is a huge deal, but unwanted kissing is a big deal. With my manic Tinder dating phase I had several guys force themselves on me and get handsy and aggressive without any consideration for my consent.

For most of it I didn't say no, but I wasn't entirely comfortable with it. I just went along with it. But then a few weeks ago a guy got extremely aggressive very suddenly after several very calm, normal dates. I ended up in a legitimate physical altercation because my first reaction was to fight back (he was being THAT aggressive). He seemed very surprised and expressed belief that I had consented to it by going on the earlier date with him before we went back to my place. He was an LDS guy in my ward, to make it even more uncomfortable, and now I have a sure-to-be awkward meeting with my bishop on Tuesday because he heard about this guy attacking me, and noticed the bruises on my collarbones and cheekbone at tithing settlement last week. Unwanted kissing is not fun, and not okay, and anything more that is unwanted is also okay.

Where is the harm in asking for consent? It's not lame or stupid or just a minor thing. Out of 50+ first dates in the past five months, only one guy asked for consent before kissing me.

[Zedability]

I agree. Unwanted kissing is majorly not OK.

[Emiliana]

I disagree with most of the writers who believe that kissing is a huge deal, but unwanted kissing is a big deal.

Yeah. Same as with any other physical act, consent is required. Read her (his) body language. If you're not sure if she (he) wants it, ask!

[Portia]

So I've been thinking about this a lot (consent, respect, and Utah dating culture) and the more I think about it, the more sickened I am.

1. There seems to be an issue where some BYU men have massive entitlement issues. (Of course it's not all of them, but it still seems to be a lot.)
1a. There's also a major issue where they're both sexually repressed and over-sexed, with a frankly bizarre focus on the most extreme manifestations of sexuality from a young age.
1b. Throw Tinder and other applications designed for hooking up in the mix, and you have a bunch of libidinous virgins with a giant chivalry complex and a "don't think about polar bears" issue around human sexuality.
1c. This attitude of entitlement hardly surprises me, since they've been told how great they are since hitting puberty and that a hot girl who bakes cookies is their prize for a mission. It's like all the most noxious elements of a frat boy mentality and pre-second-wave gender roles.

2. Women who are pro-active (even "manic") daters deserve respect as much as any other women.
2a. But with an obsession with female "purity," women are pushed to the margins of this society if they are willing participants in a casual dating culture that would be a) no big deal b) a lot more booze-soaked at any other university. "Making out" is a step that most adolescents experience in high school without massive parental condemnation and (in my case) stalking.
2b. You end up with women being assaulted: from doorstep kissing to having their breasts grabbed to their collarbones bruised. This is assault, plain and simple, and would be treated as such on any other campus.
2c. These women are then retroactively judged for being "easy" and not having been demure enough to wait around for a wedding night initiation to second base, or something.

CONSENT MATTERS
ASSAULT ISN'T OKAY
CHIVALRY IS GROSS

[Emiliana]

CONSENT MATTERS
ASSAULT ISN'T OKAY
CHIVALRY IS GROSS

+1

[Shrinky Dink]

Apparently more guys need to start watching Doc McStuffins