secularism and the pursuit of happiness

[Portia]

So I'm quite interested in the "rise of secularism" (which, of course, is relative in the United States) and from whence the areligious derive their values. I found a book by Phil Zuckerman to be very fruitful in my quest. This is a podcast he did for those who may be interested. I think it's useful for those who want to move past the "angry atheist" movement or however you want to characterize that.

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/living-secular-life

Although Mr. Christofferson at least addresses the question, I think he has the cause/effects somewhat skewed from the facts of those who are secular and what they actually report about their values and childhoods to surveys. (Basically, they're not on the whole much more miserable or elated than the rest of you folks, and come from all walks of life. Conversely, smug non-religious people can underestimate the well-being or service of the average religious person precisely because living that religion would have negative utility for such an individual.)

In this day and age it’s come to be expected, and slowly accepted, that everyone has their own truths. But truth and fact are two separate things.

This quote about women and biology actually hits the nail on the head, for me, why I'm a secularist. It has nothing to do with the environment in which I was raised; I think it would be beneficial to realize that secular folks aren't, on the whole, information-poor citizens.

[mic0]

I am *AMAZED* that a writer used 1984 to argue *for* religion. That boggles my mind. I feel like everything written in that answer about 1984 can directly be used to say "don't take the LDS church too seriously." Every example of what that dystopian government does has a direct corrollary in my mind to the LDS church. ETA: In 1984 the main character wonders what to do because everyone around him seems to believe the same thing and live similar lives. What I've noticed about the world outside strict Mormondom is that everyone DOES NOT BELIEVE the same thing. That is part of what is amazing and made me doubt what I'd been taught, to be honest -- the sheer multitude of beliefs.

(it's here btw)

[NovemberEast]

When I read 1984 in an English class, the teacher had us explore the themes by comparing them to historical movements, governments, revolutions, and the like. When we presented our findings, I remember the teacher pointing out something that has really stuck with me. She said that while the AP exams would have correct answers for how to view literature, it should not limit the way we explore and apply literature to our personal lives.

So I think both you and Alta are just applying the themes in the book to your life as you relate to it personally.

[mic0]

Oh, absolutely.

[Portia]

Well according to a commencement address, apparently the chief scourges of newly minted graduates are pron, apostates, and ... exes? (For the right man, I might be all three. #micdrop)

As my boyfriend put it, "some people just can't help assuming their individual experience is universal." YES.

[NovemberEast]

Well according to a commencement address, apparently the chief scourges of newly minted graduates are pron, apostates, and ... exes? (For the right man, I might be all three. #micdrop)

As my boyfriend put it, "some people just can't help assuming their individual experience is universal." YES.

like...ex significant others? Because I could see that too.

[Portia]

Well according to a commencement address, apparently the chief scourges of newly minted graduates are pron, apostates, and ... exes? (For the right man, I might be all three. #micdrop)

As my boyfriend put it, "some people just can't help assuming their individual experience is universal." YES.

like...ex significant others? Because I could see that too.

Is it useful to some individuals? Sure.

As a Universal Recipe for Success and Happiness in Life? Bollocks.

It's operating under a worldview where everything and everyone is Out to Get You. I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself which exes I should move on from completely, which I can remain friendly with, and which I want to be close to, and the idea that I need some random person to instill fear-based prescriptions for how I live MY life is so very counter to good sense.

I hope that such speeches do not intensify, furthering rifts I do not seek with close friends and family. The idea that I'm trying to "persuade" anyone to live their life counter to whatever principles they hold dear is so hilariously projecting.

[NovemberEast]

Well according to a commencement address, apparently the chief scourges of newly minted graduates are pron, apostates, and ... exes? (For the right man, I might be all three. #micdrop)

As my boyfriend put it, "some people just can't help assuming their individual experience is universal." YES.

like...ex significant others? Because I could see that too.

Is it useful to some individuals? Sure.

As a Universal Recipe for Success and Happiness in Life? Bollocks.

It's operating under a worldview where everything and everyone is Out to Get You. I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself which exes I should move on from completely, which I can remain friendly with, and which I want to be close to, and the idea that I need some random person to instill fear-based prescriptions for how I live MY life is so very counter to good sense.

I hope that such speeches do not intensify, furthering rifts I do not seek with close friends and family. The idea that I'm trying to "persuade" anyone to live their life counter to whatever principles they hold dear is so hilariously projecting.

So, I was actually kidding about it meaning exes in the romantic sense. That can't be what was actually meant. I am so confused now. I figured they were just talking about ex-mormons.

Two of my best friends from high school sort of fizzled out on the church. They don't really have any strong opinions about it either way and we were able to kind of ignore it and go on being friends. I think it's mutually beneficial for many reasons.

[Arcaiden]

It doesn't seem accurate to me, to blame the rise of secularism on the failure of previous generations. The internet has changed how our world works, and that means that religious organizations have to confront uncomfortable truths about their present, and their past. You can't just sweep these things under the rug anymore. In terms of social justice, our culture has also evolved much more rapidly than many religions have. Young people today can clearly see these contradictions, and aren't afraid to leave religion behind when they see it being unjust, contradictory to what they view as the divine nature of God, or in many cases, actually hurtful to friends & family members. I also think we are just seeing the tip of this iceberg. We've had Wikileaks, Edward Snowden, and now the Panama Papers. What's going to happen when we have the first big leak from Mormonism?

On another note, I recently finished watching Going Clear. Needless to say I was pretty horrified when I actually heard Elder Clayton say that we need to "disconnect" from those who have lost their faith. Yuck!

[NovemberEast]

Ok, so I finally looked the address up online.

"Exes" - maybe a good idea, but kind of an odd thing to throw in. I figure it's too much to expect for young graduates to have good enough judgement. Or I'm just grumpy because I live in a college town and I hate them and their loud stupid voices after this weekend. I actually used the words "get off my lawn." It was a proud moment. Aside from the stupidity of having to point this out to adults, I think it's generally good advice, but it's not going to stop cheaters from cheating.

"apostates" - The only quote I could find was "We should disconnect, immediately and completely, from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith, and instead reconnect promptly with the holy spirit." I don't think avoiding "listening to the proselytizing efforts" is the same as shunning those who were formerly lds. Is that really all we can talk to eachother about? Nope. I think it goes both ways that the ex and member populations would prefer not to be proselytized to. Avoiding proselytizing doesn't have to mean to avoid socializing. But again, it's hard to expect people who are supposed to be adults to think rationally.

Ok I'm done being grumpy and hating on college kids. For now. But you should really see how terrible my sidewalk looks. If the fraternity house doesn't clean it up...

"porn" - pretty much nothing to see and nothing new here

[Portia]

Good contributions to the discussion!

I do find it bothersome that merely being "openly ex-Mormon" is viewed as "in your face" or, my favorite, "won't leave it alone." When the state passes resolutions which seem very one-sided, for example, it definitely feels like the minority culture is hashing outsized influence. And the emphasis over the last three years on LGBT folks, former LDS, and doubters just leaves a bad "us vs them" taste in my mouth. Like ex-boyfriends, couldn't INDIVIDUAL MORMON YOUTH make their own call as to which media and which people to associate with? It honestly does seem like projecting...

And yes, it's exactly the term used by Scientology. My family is crazy enough without getting ideas!

Frats notwithstanding, I think the post college years are an important time to figure out what one wants from life, love, and yes, sex. But this Clayton seems very ... Reactionary.

I'm specifically living a few miles north of campus (where Mico lived! Yay!) to avoid The Hill. #oldperson