Den of apostates

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TheBlackSheep
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Den of apostates

Post by TheBlackSheep » Wed May 10, 2017 2:18 pm

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/89644/

EVERY other official and semi-official BYU space (at least when I was a student) was what this person wants the Board to be. Thank the God I don't believe in that there is some space, somewhere, where there is a little bit of room.

Thanks, current writers, for everything you do. You touch people's lives in ways you don't know.

It could be that my grandma died this week, or that I'm crazy depressed/anxious, or that a hundred other things have worn me down, but I would wave SO MANY middle fingers in this question asker's face. I'm the original Board apostate, and I suggested a whole bunch of Mormon s**t to my mother for the funeral when she was asking me if it was okay. My mom's mom's funeral will be the day before Mother's Day, and my mom asked that we not even speak of Mother's Day or get her gifts or flowers as a result. My siblings really wanted to do something, so guess who suggested making donations to the Church missionary fund in my grandmother's name because my grandma loved being a missionary? MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. THE ONLY APOSTATE IN MY FAMILY. People who are a little different don't take anything from you. YOU GET ALL THE CONSIDERATIONS IN THESE SITUATIONS. People who are different just want a little space. Y'all super Mos have enough space at BYU. Let there be a LITTLE space for people who might feel a little out of place. All the writers (as far as I know) have testimonies anyway. Calm yo self. THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE STRUGGLING AT BYU BECAUSE THEY CANNOT FIND SUPPORT. YOU HAVE SUPPORT. STOP. STAAAAAAAHPPPPPPP. THEIR MORMON AND BYU EXPERIENCES COUNT AS MUCH AS YOURS.

OMG I am grounding myself from the Board for a while. But good HEAVEN.

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Cognoscente
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Cognoscente » Wed May 10, 2017 3:10 pm

"Sword of Truth" sounds like a real judgmental, deluded, egocentric prick. Good think he doesn't care what liberals think, or he might exercise some introspection.
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Marduk
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Marduk » Wed May 10, 2017 3:17 pm

The problem with political alignment is that it is self-assessed and changes based on positionality.

That is, you get to decide what you call yourself (liberal, conservative, left of center, right of center) without necessarily having any sort of data to back up your position. This leads to people in particular areas believing the entire country is more or less liberal or conservative than it actually is. And a lot of research has suggested that our government is significantly more conservative than the populace.

One example of this: if we measure the spectra of political belief and weight the "center" based on population, people who are "moderate" will: approve of gay marriage, approve of marijuana legalization, say the government is not doing enough to help the poor, and say that immigration needs to be reformed. Theoretically (and again, measuring political belief on a left to right alignment and normalizing for population numbers) a person could be "right of center" and believe all of these things.

This writer has a huge conservative bias if he believes the board represents liberality. And likely, he does so because so much of BYU skews so conservative (an opinion I know I've gotten in trouble for in the past, but again, what counts as liberal at BYU usually amounts to conservative outside of BYU.)
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Marduk
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Marduk » Wed May 10, 2017 3:19 pm

Of course, that's not to say what is right. That's a totally different question. This reader is totally entitled to believe all but the most extreme of conservatives to be morally wrong and bad members of the church. They should just be intellectually honest to say that they want an extremely conservative position, instead of the moderate conservativeness that the board represents (again, relative to the country as a whole.)
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Emiliana
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Emiliana » Wed May 10, 2017 4:59 pm

Ummmmmmmm yeah calling the Board liberal is really amusing considering most of the other internet sources I read.

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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Emiliana » Wed May 10, 2017 5:22 pm

Also, I found this paragraph suuuuuuper condescending: "So if you're some board member struggling with your testimony,can you promise to read the Book of Mormon every day for the next month? Can you promise to pray to God every night even if you may no longer believe that he's there? Can you try to make it to church this Sunday?" I'm an apostate, not from the Mormon church, but from a different church, and lemme tell you -- I did all those things (except substitute Bible for BoM) for YEARS to try to stay faithful, but the harder I tried, the less faith I had.

Also also, that section I just quoted was immediately followed by, "So all I truly want to know is - can I pretty please have the board I love back?" Which makes me think that what this reader is ACTUALLY worried about is that s/he doesn't like reading the Board anymore and is being a special snowflake about being exposed to differing opinions.

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yayfulness
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by yayfulness » Wed May 10, 2017 7:16 pm

This question bothered me on so many levels.
Marduk wrote:This reader is totally entitled to believe all but the most extreme of conservatives to be morally wrong and bad members of the church. They should just be intellectually honest to say that they want an extremely conservative position, instead of the moderate conservativeness that the board represents (again, relative to the country as a whole.)
The reader started off saying "I don't want to imply that being liberal makes you a bad Mormon," then spends literally the entire question implying that being liberal makes you a bad Mormon. It was even more striking in the unedited version. Like... if you believe it, you believe it, and I can't change your mind. But at least own up to it.
Emiliana wrote:Also, I found this paragraph suuuuuuper condescending: "So if you're some board member struggling with your testimony,can you promise to read the Book of Mormon every day for the next month? Can you promise to pray to God every night even if you may no longer believe that he's there? Can you try to make it to church this Sunday?" I'm an apostate, not from the Mormon church, but from a different church, and lemme tell you -- I did all those things (except substitute Bible for BoM) for YEARS to try to stay faithful, but the harder I tried, the less faith I had.

Also also, that section I just quoted was immediately followed by, "So all I truly want to know is - can I pretty please have the board I love back?" Which makes me think that what this reader is ACTUALLY worried about is that s/he doesn't like reading the Board anymore and is being a special snowflake about being exposed to differing opinions.
All of this.

I drove myself into the deepest depression of my life while trying to repair my faith and very nearly destroyed myself in the process. I'm so sorry that this clearly trivial event forced you through the sheer horror of reading opinions you happen to disagree with.

I specifically avoided talking about the Church during alumni week. I'm trying really hard to let go of all the bitterness and resentment. This makes that so much harder.
The Black Sheep wrote:EVERY other official and semi-official BYU space (at least when I was a student) was what this person wants the Board to be. Thank the God I don't believe in that there is some space, somewhere, where there is a little bit of room.
Seriously, heaven forbid there be one place that doesn't agree with this person's version of orthodoxy. If it wasn't for the Board, my connection to BYU would have ended the moment I graduated and I would have never looked back. The Board was easily the most important part of my BYU experience, and enforced orthodoxy would have destroyed it.

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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Cognoscente » Wed May 10, 2017 7:23 pm

yayfulness wrote:If it wasn't for the Board, my connection to BYU would have ended the moment I graduated and I would have never looked back. The Board was easily the most important part of my BYU experience, and enforced orthodoxy would have destroyed it.
This x1000.
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TheBlackSheep
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by TheBlackSheep » Wed May 10, 2017 10:25 pm

No but seriously though. I may have died without the Board, literally. A lot of people may have died without the Board. That sounds melodramatic but whatever. I called 911 a lot of times, and I never do that unless I have to. I met a lot of people in private. I hosted groups. People don't know how to find other people that are safe, emotionally. It's a big deal that there is a space in BYU culture for people who are not cookie cutter perfect.

Also, yeah. I stressed myself out to the max trying to salvage my testimony back when. Stop being so condescending, friend.

For years, I chose not to be angry at the church. I really, consciously thought that if I were the perfect example of an inactive person, I could prove to people that I was still good enough. Guess what, with some people, with most people, IT DOESN'T WORK. I'm only getting angry now, and I went inactive in 2009. I still go out of my way on the Board to be really painfully respectful, even on gay issues, where I'm most sensitive, but you can't do enough as a non-member a lot of times. And that is really bleeping frustrating.

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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Shrinky Dink » Fri May 12, 2017 1:53 pm

Can I just say that I'm actually surprised that two thirds of board alumni are still active in the church? All of my aunts and uncles on both sides of my family (and I have a large Mormon family) were raised in the church by my grandparents and, from what we can tell, only about half are still active in the LDS church. (I include this information so you know that I'm not trying to imply that I think board writers are more likely than the general population to leave the church.) Also, one of my favorite parts of alumni week is seeing where everyone is now. Yes, I get a little sad when I find that someone isn't active, but that's more of the same sadness when you find out that your friend finally read your favorite book and didn't like it. Even then, it makes me happy to see what's going on in their lives and that in general, they're happy. And I care a lot more about that than I care about whether or not they drink coffee and wine or have gotten a tattoo.

I really liked Anathema's comment about politics:
From my perspective, religion informs people's core beliefs about what is right and wrong. Politics steps in at the implementation stage of those beliefs. To illustrate this, think of the belief that drugs are bad, and that people shouldn't do them (barring appropriate medical cases). Say that two people share this belief. The same belief causes one person to want all drugs to remain illegal in order mitigate their presence in society. The other person reasons that people will do drugs either way, and believes that legalizing drugs will allow for greater regulation, raising the price of drugs through taxes, and thus ultimately lessening drug use in the economy. Both people want to reduce drug use, but they have different beliefs about which is the best way to go about doing that.
I've actually taken to discussing many hot topic issues this way including my thoughts on gay marriage, abortion, drug legality, gun ownership and more. Breaking the issue down to "We both want to decrease [abortion, gun violence, drug abuse]" Is a great way to find common ground and start talking about actual solutions instead of getting stuck on "Me good! You bad!" which is where Sword of Truth seems to be stuck.
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Katya » Fri May 12, 2017 2:05 pm

Shrinky Dink wrote:Yes, I get a little sad when I find that someone isn't active, but that's more of the same sadness when you find out that your friend finally read your favorite book and didn't like it. Even then, it makes me happy to see what's going on in their lives and that in general, they're happy.
I've realized that I feel sad in kind of the same way I feel sad when one of my friends gets divorced—not because their decision necessarily makes me sad, but because that decision is indicative that they've been going through a really rough period for a while and maybe didn't have a lot of emotional support during that time.

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Re: Den of apostates

Post by mic0 » Fri May 12, 2017 2:35 pm

Shrinky dink, I have an unfounded suspicion that more retired writers are inactive/no longer Mormon but don't participate in alumni week. It feels like a pretty specific time period shows up.

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Shrinky Dink
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Shrinky Dink » Fri May 12, 2017 5:34 pm

Katya wrote:
Shrinky Dink wrote:Yes, I get a little sad when I find that someone isn't active, but that's more of the same sadness when you find out that your friend finally read your favorite book and didn't like it. Even then, it makes me happy to see what's going on in their lives and that in general, they're happy.
I've realized that I feel sad in kind of the same way I feel sad when one of my friends gets divorced—not because their decision necessarily makes me sad, but because that decision is indicative that they've been going through a really rough period for a while and maybe didn't have a lot of emotional support during that time.
This is a great way of putting it. In both cases, I hope they are able to find happiness with their new situation and I always try to wish them the best of luck.
mic0 wrote:Shrinky dink, I have an unfounded suspicion that more retired writers are inactive/no longer Mormon but don't participate in alumni week. It feels like a pretty specific time period shows up.
You're probably right and I initially phrased it incorrectly. I am appreciative of all those who choose to participate in alumni week and give a unique perspective on a lot of hard topics.
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Portia
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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Portia » Fri May 12, 2017 6:14 pm

mic0 wrote:Shrinky dink, I have an unfounded suspicion that more retired writers are inactive/no longer Mormon but don't participate in alumni week. It feels like a pretty specific time period shows up.
Yeah, almost all my closest friends are Millennial Apostates. Few of them are as engaged with the Church or other BYU spaces. Interesting confluence of factors . Incidentally, I have a first date tonight with a never Mo tonight from the Bay Area... Kind of hoping he's a bit lower in neuroticism because of that. Ha.
Last edited by Portia on Fri May 12, 2017 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Portia » Fri May 12, 2017 6:15 pm

Anything Goes just came up on my playlist.

Good writers too who once knew better words... :p

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Re: Den of apostates

Post by Portia » Mon May 15, 2017 10:28 am

TheBlackSheep wrote:It could be that my grandma died this week, or that I'm crazy depressed/anxious, or that a hundred other things have worn me down, but I would wave SO MANY middle fingers in this question asker's face. I'm the original Board apostate, and I suggested a whole bunch of Mormon s**t to my mother for the funeral when she was asking me if it was okay. My mom's mom's funeral will be the day before Mother's Day, and my mom asked that we not even speak of Mother's Day or get her gifts or flowers as a result. My siblings really wanted to do something, so guess who suggested making donations to the Church missionary fund in my grandmother's name because my grandma loved being a missionary? MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. THE ONLY APOSTATE IN MY FAMILY.
I hope that the funeral went as well as funerals can. I'm sorry that it sounds like a really tough one.

I went with my grandma and sister to the cemetery on Saturday, but on Sunday, I ignored the day and treated it like any other Sunday, and that was a wise choice for me mental-health-wise.

I think you must have inherited some of your grandmother's qualities since missionary work is at its best reaching out to others. :) I hope your mom can eventually feel better -- that had to be hard.