#91343 2 Nephi 5:20-21

[vorpal blade]

https://100hourboard.org/questions/91343/

Good job Dragon Lady explaining 2 Nephi 5:20-21

[TheBlackSheep]

Okay, wow.

I like Dragon Lady, but she is out of her lane here, I think. SHE had a lot of pain over this issue? She's white. I'm glad she got to feel better, but this answer is just laden in white privilege and nonsense.

[Emiliana]

Yeah, that "us vs them" mentality is one of the reasons I no longer identify as Christian. Not just because so many Christians have that mentality, although that's also problematic, but also because it is deeply ingrained in Scripture and I can't believe in a deity that doesn't call that bullshit for what it is.

[vorpal blade]

Okay, wow.

I like Dragon Lady, but she is out of her lane here, I think. SHE had a lot of pain over this issue? She's white. I'm glad she got to feel better, but this answer is just laden in white privilege and nonsense.

I’m disappointed in you TBS. Dismissing someone’s experience and feelings just because they have the “wrong” color. What is foolishness to one is wisdom to another.

[Marduk]

I don't think you can reduce that comment to being about color. "White" is not a color, in this sense, it is more about a collective identity created within colonialism. Just ask the Irish and Italians in the 1800's.

[Marduk]

But really, it is much simpler than that. The verses in question are harmful to those who aren't white, quite simply. It isn't white people who are being harmed. Yes, seeing someone else get hurt can be painful. But the person seeing that doesn't get to decide when the injured person is ok, the injured person does.

If I called you a name, and Dragon Lady heard it, she might be bothered. But it would be you owed the apology, you who got to decide whether or not to accept that apology, and you who got to decide whether or not you were ok afterwards. Dragon Lady's discomfort at the situation is not the primary concern.

[TheBlackSheep]

Thanks to Marduk for a more measured, eloquent version of what I meant, though I stand right by the original.

I’m disappointed in you TBS.

I constantly feel condescended to by you, and phrases like this are one reason why. Please stop using this kind of language with me. I'm not your kid or your mentee. I'm a stranger on the internet who you have previously hurt the feelings of many times. Please use language that respects that.

I'm not saying that Dragon Lady can't have her feelings. I'm saying that centering her experiences in a story about feeling better about racism in the church is an act just doused in white privilege. Trusting your emotions about feeling better about that sort of thing instead of listening to the impacted groups is a huge problem in Mormon/ex-Mormon society. Holding it up as a good explanation of those verses doesn't help. Dragon Lady frankly has no business discussing this. We should be hearing from a Mormon from a different racial group. Our own feelings are important in that they impact our individual realities and lives, but they don't matter much in the grand scheme. We, the white people, weren't the hurt people. We don't understand all the ways in which racism has negatively impacted people from minority groups. We have to learn that from them.

[Whistler]

I agree that ideally we would hear from a black Mormon about these verses, which are racist. But I think we should still talk about race issues even if we don't have black people present, otherwise we risk ignoring them. At the same time, we should follow good mourning etiquette which is "comfort in, dump out" (https://www.dailyshoring.com/circle-of- ... ng-theory/). Black Mormons are the center of the circle of grief surrounding black racism in the LDS church. We should listen to them since they are the most impacted.

I don't believe in a God that would change someone's skin color based on their religious beliefs. I'd rather think that the racism is something the original author of this passage wrote in.

[vorpal blade]

But really, it is much simpler than that. The verses in question are harmful to those who aren't white, quite simply. It isn't white people who are being harmed. Yes, seeing someone else get hurt can be painful. But the person seeing that doesn't get to decide when the injured person is ok, the injured person does.

If I called you a name, and Dragon Lady heard it, she might be bothered. But it would be you owed the apology, you who got to decide whether or not to accept that apology, and you who got to decide whether or not you were ok afterwards. Dragon Lady's discomfort at the situation is not the primary concern.

I would like to expand on Marduk’s parable.

Marduk calls me (and many others) a name, and Dragon Lady hears it. As I understand it she is greatly bothered because it impacts her relationship with Marduk. She worships Marduk and wonders how Marduk could be simultaneously good and kind and wonderful and still call me that name. I’m sure Dragon Lady has empathy for me, but that is a separate discussion, and she does not pretend to speak for me. As she gives the problem much thought and thinks it through in her mind she continues to ask the great and all-knowing Marduk why he called me that name. Because she asked in humility and in faith Marduk gives her sufficient enlightenment that she now understands that what Marduk has done has been done in love, and is in the best interest of me as well as the rest mankind. She now feels at peace.

Dragon Lady then shares some of her knowledge with the world. She is rejected, harsh and hurtful things are said about her, and her feelings are belittled.

I had previously gone before Marduk and received the same answer as Dragon Lady, and my soul was filled with love and gratitude for the kindness and goodness of Marduk. I am at peace with Marduk.

[vorpal blade]

I’m disappointed in you TBS.

I constantly feel condescended to by you, and phrases like this are one reason why. Please stop using this kind of language with me. I'm not your kid or your mentee. I'm a stranger on the internet who you have previously hurt the feelings of many times. Please use language that respects that.

I thought we were friends. I like you. We have known each other for almost 10 years now. Sure, we have had our differences, as friends will, but I thought we had kept on friendly terms. I appreciate you and learn from you.

But this brings up a couple of interesting points. Would you have felt condescended to if a good friend had said, in a loving way, “I’m disappointed in you?” If it had been a child that said it to you?

Now that you point it out, I can understand why you might feel condescended to. But it is also true that the words “I’m disappointed in you” could have been received very differently. What makes the difference?

Cognitive-behaviorists and rational emotive therapists have been saying for decades that “our beliefs and expectations about a person or event or situation directly influence and, many would argue, cause our feelings. They are not the result of or inherent in of the situation itself. Others do not cause our feelings — we cause them ourselves.”

It is a fallacy to think that it is my fault that you feel condescended to, or that there is anything I can do about it. I believe you when you say you felt condescended to and that you felt that I hurt your feelings. Your feelings are important, but I am not responsible for them, you are. I did not cause your feelings, you did. You have those feelings because of your beliefs and your expectations, which you can change, say the experts.

You have no idea how often you could have hurt my feelings in the past, even when you were trying hard not to.

You can read about this in many places. One source I have is an article called “We Are Responsible for Our Own Feelings,” by John M. Grohol, Psy.D. There is more to the article, which if you were to read might answer further questions you may have.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/we-are-re ... -feelings/

[Arcaiden]

You thought you were friends??? I don't know about you, but when one of my friends says that I have been condescending to them and hurt their feelings many times the first thing I would do would be to apologize... not to drag up a bunch of sources from "cognitive-behaviorists" and "rational emotive therapists" about how I can never be responsible for their feelings. That's a really crappy way to treat anyone, and an especially crappy way to treat someone who is supposed to be a friend.

Nowhere in this post did I see the words, "I'm sorry." Which is pretty typical for you it seems. Act in a condescending, belittling way to other members of this forum, and then when you get called out on it, instead of apologizing, you deflect, come up with overly obscure reasons why your behavior couldn't possibly have been that way, and then proceed to try and blame them for your bad behavior. You never own your actions or simply apologize for them.

Someone calls you out on hurting them - the correct response is to apologize and then sit the heck down. Don't try and throw it back in their face, make excuses, and then blame them for your inappropriate behavior.

[TheBlackSheep]

I agree that ideally we would hear from a black Mormon about these verses, which are racist. But I think we should still talk about race issues even if we don't have black people present, otherwise we risk ignoring them. At the same time, we should follow good mourning etiquette which is "comfort in, dump out" (https://www.dailyshoring.com/circle-of- ... ng-theory/). Black Mormons are the center of the circle of grief surrounding black racism in the LDS church. We should listen to them since they are the most impacted.

I don't believe in a God that would change someone's skin color based on their religious beliefs. I'd rather think that the racism is something the original author of this passage wrote in.

Oh I completely agree that we should be talking about race. I just think that white folks should really only boost the signals of black and brown folks or use our privilege to call out other white folks. I don’t think that sharing what made one white person feel better about their religion’s racist history is appropriate, especially since that isn’t what the question was about and she didn’t call for any change. Just a white person feeling better now. I think she could have done it better.

[Whistler]

yeah

[Man with a Mustache]

Black Sheep doesn't need me to defend her. She's a strong and capable person who has advocated bravely for herself. It cannot be more clear to everyone (Vorpal excepted) who is in the right here.

I am merely writing to point out the irony of the fact that this exchange between you, Vorpal, and Black Sheep illustrates precisely the problem she is trying to describe. She had communicated pain at a set of behaviors that you have displayed. Instead of believing that her pain is real, listening to her, and making an attempt to change your behavior, you have provided an explanation of how what you have done shouldn't have been painful and failed to do the only thing that decency suggests: apologize and change.

This is precisely the problem with race and LGBT issues that face us today. Minorites from both groups have communicated pain and offense at a set of behaviors and attitudes that prevail in our society and the majority has taken upon itself to explain to these people the many scientific reasons that prove their offense to be unfounded.

This thread is a microcosm of an overarching problem in our society which denies a voice to people who are openly and actively saying in no uncertain terms that they feel marginalized. It doesn't matter if it's not your fault or if you didn't mean it. The only rational behavior from a group of people who have the power to hurt and not be hurt is the same as yours should be here: apologize and change.

[Amity]

Relatedly, this is why I detest that "choose not to be offended!" general conference talk from a while ago. Too often I've seen people use it to justify their poor behavior and blame others for the consequences of said poor behavior.

[vorpal blade]

After I post something I dread coming back to read the responses. Usually the responses are things that hurt me and pain me greatly. How many of you will choose to apologize to me? Is it okay to hurt me, but not The Black Sheep?

Is it always wrong to hurt someone?

Many years ago when one of my daughters was a toddler we visited my father’s home. This daughter was running around the pool when she fell and split open her chin. We decided to take her to urgent care. My daughter was fearful and didn’t want to go.

The doctor told us after he examined my daughter that she would need stitches. Because of the location he wouldn’t be able to do as much for the pain as he would like. We, as her parents, would have to strap her into a restraining device so she couldn’t run away or jerk her head back. She started to cry, begging us to let her go. If you have never had a child you probably don’t know how hard it was to watch her cry as the doctor hurt her. I’ll never forget the look of betrayal in her face. We, the people she loved the most in the world, were accomplishes to her pain. We were standing by doing nothing to rescue her.

I did not feel her pain, except vicariously, so I suppose you might think I have no business talking about my pain. She did not understand why the doctor had to do this. I suppose she understands now. If you think it is necessary you could ask her yourself. She has been a contributing member of this forum for longer than I have. But I know she hates to get involved in disagreements.

Was the doctor wrong to hurt my daughter in the way he did? I think most of you would say “no.” In this case he had to do it for her best good. Did the doctor owe her an apology? He might have said he was sorry, but it was not the kind of sorry that leads him to never do it again. He believed he was doing the right thing, and I believe he was.

Do people sometimes excuse their bad behavior claiming to do it for the good of another? Yes, frequently. But sometimes it is true. You have to take it on a case by case basis.

Now, suppose there had been people there who didn’t understand why the doctor was doing what he did. According to their expectations and experiences they could attribute all kinds of motives to the doctor, and in each of their explanations the doctor might appear to be a very bad person. They could demand that he change. They could believe that everyone thinks as they do and anything the doctor says is just lame self-justification. Some might say that the only correct thing for the doctor to do is to apologize and sit the heck down. Some might say that they no longer believe in doctors, after what they have seen.

This all does relate to the discussion at hand. The Book of Mormon is true, and it is the word of God. There are those who see evil in 2 Nephi 5:20-21. Base on their beliefs and expectations they believe that those scriptures are harmful in a way suggesting that the Church or the author of those scriptures needs to issue an apology and change. Sometimes scriptures do bring pain to some, but proper understanding brings blessings and not harm for all those who love God and willingly follow him. In those scriptures you can understand the love and goodness of God for all people, black and white, male and female.

I know that there is racism in the world. I know that people say many unkind things about other races. Usually those kinds of statements bring pain, and almost always they are based on evil traditions and ignorance. You and I make mistakes and do not see the full picture. But God s perfect and understands everything. When you question the words of God you may have to search more deeply, to pray for understanding, and it will come to you. Because man’s ways are not the ways of God.

[TheBlackSheep]

Black Sheep doesn't need me to defend her. She's a strong and capable person who has advocated bravely for herself.

Hey, thank you. And thanks to you, too, Arcaiden.

This is precisely the problem with race and LGBT issues that face us today. Minorites from both groups have communicated pain and offense at a set of behaviors and attitudes that prevail in our society and the majority has taken upon itself to explain to these people the many scientific reasons that prove their offense to be unfounded.

This thread is a microcosm of an overarching problem in our society which denies a voice to people who are openly and actively saying in no uncertain terms that they feel marginalized. It doesn't matter if it's not your fault or if you didn't mean it. The only rational behavior from a group of people who have the power to hurt and not be hurt is the same as yours should be here: apologize and change.

Yes x1,000,000. Somebody give this guy Editor's Choice. Exactly.

Relatedly, this is why I detest that "choose not to be offended!" general conference talk from a while ago. Too often I've seen people use it to justify their poor behavior and blame others for the consequences of said poor behavior.

Yes x1,000,000 again. It's really convenient to be able to say, "Nobody can make you be offended!" after having behaved like an absolute beast, but all that happens then is that the people that give a [care] about other people end up making all the sacrifices and getting nowhere. So screw that.

[Stuntman]

After I post something I dread coming back to read the responses.

So fucking leave.

[yayfulness]

It sucks to wonder if God is racist. You know what sucks even worse than that? To wonder if God is racist against you, personally. The first one is a problem, sure, but it's something you can rationalize away or find an explanation for or even just forget about if you need to. But I don't think you, or Dragon Lady, or anyone else in this conversation honestly, really understands what it's like to look in the mirror and wonder whether your single most visible physical feature is a literal curse from God, and I haven't seen that acknowledged anywhere.

My wife was hit by a drunk driver while driving to work last summer. If I were to say "it sucked for me, too," that would be a technically true statement. I'd have to be a sociopath for it not to suck. But I can't begin to tell you how mind-bogglingly dismissive and hurtful it would be for me to make a big production out of how much it sucked for me, all the while never even mentioning anything about the experience from her perspective. Doubly so, because I did not do a very good job of emotionally supporting her in the aftermath of the crash and by failing to do so made the experience much worse for her.

So no, I don't really have much patience for listening to white Mormons talk about how the Priesthood ban or 2 Nephi 5 or anything else has been hurtful to them. Of course trying to reconcile God's perfection with earthly manifestations of racism has been hurtful to you. I'd be a bit worried about you if it wasn't. There are even appropriate ways and means of expressing that hurt. But to center that hurt, and in the process dismiss the much greater hurt of those who actually lived through the experience, all the while completely ignoring the ways in which the group that you belong to amplified that other group's hurt, is ridiculously insensitive.

[yayfulness]

"But yayfulness, other white people might have been racist, but I wasn't!" (Not attributing this to you specifically, Vorpal, it's just something I've heard one time too many.)

If God can curse Cain and let literal billions of people carry on that curse for the entire duration of human history, you can acknowledge the sins of your grandparents. I'm not really interested in hearing about personal responsibility when we're literally having a conversation about millennia-long collective responsibility.