#49708 Lesbian roommates

[Katya]

It wouldn’t do to let a woman who claims to be a lesbian live in an apartment full of guys. That would be trouble.

Why the use of the word "claims," out of curiosity?

I was just thinking that if you had a rule that lesbians can live in a guy's apartment, but straight women can't, then any woman who wanted to live in a guy's apartment would only need to claim that she was a lesbian. She could say that she had feelings for other women, but didn't act on them. Therefore she would be safe from any honor code violations. The exception to the rule of no cohabitation would negate the enforcement of the rule, since they could all claim to be secretly gay or lesbian. How could you prove they weren't?

Ah, I see what you're saying. (Although, that said, having seen the way many college guys keep house, I don't know many girls who'd actively choose to live with a bunch of them. )

[vorpal blade]

Why would one think that BYU is one of the least accepting college environments in the country?

possible examples?:

byu is one of the few remaining places where "gay" (as in "thats so gay!") is a negative slang.

byu is one of the few places where someone would actually write a letter to the editor about guys who dress nicely really being closet homosexuals.

Okay, I'm a little older, and I don't hear all the modern slang. I had never heard the expression "that's so gay" until a few months ago when my bishop, who is a P.E. instructor at the local High School, said that this epression had been replaced with "that's so Mormon" when Prop. 8 passed. I'm sorry to hear that BYU students put down gays.

The letter to the editor seems rather ignorant, to me. Sometimes people identify anyone who wears a white shirt and tie, and looks nice, to be a missionary. It doesn't bother me to be confused with a missionary, but I might be missing something here.

Thanks for your ideas.

[vorpal blade]

Vorpal,

I think that 'gay friendly' usually encompasses both being friendly with people who are gay and being accepting of their lifestyle. (I'm using 'gay' to refer to people who not only deal with same-sex attraction [SSA], but also act on it.) I certainly hope that people here at BYU excel at the first part of that, but clearly most would not approve of a homosexual lifestyle.

I think most people who talk about "accepting" gay people do mean condoning their lifestyle--finding it "acceptable, forgivable, or harmless." (I decided to refresh my memory on the exact meaning of condone.) Clearly, by that definition the LDS church doesn't condone acting on SSA. We'd like to use our own definition of acceptance--being friendly with gay people, treating them with decency and respect, and in all other ways as children of God. Unfortunately, the very fact that we do not find the homosexual lifestyle acceptable, forgivable, or harmless means that most people will say that we don't accept gays.

I think this illustrates a problem with the way we use words. I used to think that we control words and use them to communicate with others. But more and more I see words controlling us and channeling the way we think and act. "Gay friendly" sounds like a good thing, something we should try to emulate. But if you can't separate out in your mind the difference between being friendly with a person and approving of their behavior then you are rather restricted in your thinking.

Similarly "accepting" of others has a nice, warm fuzzy feeling about it. We all should be "accepting" of others since none of us is perfect. Yet just by using the term "accepting" some people are going to think it is wrong to "judge" another and wrong of us to find homosexual behavior unacceptable.

Good thoughts, and helpful, Laser Jock.

[vorpal blade]

I had an actively gay friend in high school (he actually asked me a on a date once. I said yes but we never went. Shrug) and though he knew that I thought the active gay lifestyle was wrong in my own set of morals, I knew it was fine in his set of morals, and it was never an issue. Nor were there issues with my friends who smoked or drank, though they knew it was against my standards. Is that an okay definition of "gay friendly?"

But then prop 8 happened, and I was asked to be against something that was fine, even beautiful, in another person's set of morals, and that still doesn't sit completely right with me, but I'm trying to understand.

I can't say I knew any actively gay people in High School, but I certainly knew smokers and drinkers. Like you, they knew I didn't approve of their choices, but our friendship was based on the things we had in common, not the differences. In my book you would be "gay friendly."

Since I've already written a lot in support of Prop. 8 I suppose I need not say more now.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Okay, I'm a little older, and I don't hear all the modern slang. I had never heard the expression "that's so gay" until a few months ago when my bishop, who is a P.E. instructor at the local High School, said that this expression had been replaced with "that's so Mormon" when Prop. 8 passed. I'm sorry to hear that BYU students put down gays.

Dunno, for years when I have heard someone say that something is gay, I always thought it meant messed up/odd/weird or whatever and not some derogatory word for homosexuals. Well until recently that is.

Also... there is some interesting things going on about gay marriage, maybe.

[vorpal blade]

Ah, I see what you're saying. (Although, that said, having seen the way many college guys keep house, I don't know many girls who'd actively choose to live with a bunch of them. )

I've now had three sons and four daughters go to BYU. The girl's apartments looked worse, as a rule. Really, I don't think there is any excuse for men or women to live like pigs. I think the situation is a lot worse now in both men and women apartments than it was forty years ago when I was a student at BYU.

I've read a lot of blogs where a young woman gets married and is so relieved to not have to live with female roommates any more. I think there are a lot of women who would like to try it, if it weren't against the rules. And lots of guys would think they would be in heaven if they lived in a girl's apartment. I think both situations wouldn't work out well at all.

[vorpal blade]

Dunno, for years when I have heard someone say that something is gay, I always thought it meant messed up/odd/weird or whatever and not some derogatory word for homosexuals. Well until recently that is.

When I grew up "gay" was nothing but an adjective meaning "full of or showing high-spirited merriment."

[TheBlackSheep]

Hey krebscout, quite a few of my dates in high school were with gay friends, some who were out then and others who came out later. Ah, the good old days.

I think my definition of gay friendly is pretty close to krebscout's. Those of my gay friends who actively pursue fulfillment of their feelings of same-sex attraction know that that is not a choice I would make and they know it is not a choice I condone per se, but they also know that I love them and don't judge them for their choices. Their choices are their choices, and I don't have to agree with all of their choices to trust and love them as people. Those of my gay friends who do not act on their feelings of same-sex attraction know that I sympathize with their struggle and hold them accountable to a level of exactly zero percent. They all knew I was very conflicted over Prop 8 and why, and they were all understanding over my final decision. I don't think that Tegan was afraid that anyone would drop her completely, but I do think that she was concerned that they would not be exactly open to the idea, which could have led to a significant level of awkwardness. This could turn out worse than people just being mean, at least if you're like me.

I stick by what I said about BYU being one of the least accepting campuses in the country when it comes to gay people, and it definitely isn't because of the almost universal support of things like Prop 8. I don't think that supporting Prop 8 makes you unfriendly to gay people. I do know, however, that the general attitude and underlying biases during that whole debate drove me absolutely insane and really hurt and isolated many gay people I know on campus (and, it's worth mentioning that the only gay people I know here do not plan on pursuing same-sex relationships any time in the future). It isn't about overt positions for the most part. It's something a lot less tangible.

That's my take, anyway.

[Unit of Energy]

We have a Christian obligation to show love, kindness, and humanity toward everyone, and so I would think that BYU would excel at being friendly;

I wish every one believed this. One of my seminary teachers told us in class that it was a sin to be friends with gay people. It was ok to say hi to them but that was as far as any friendship could go without being inappropriate. And he truly believed this.

[vorpal blade]

That's my take, anyway.

Okay. Thank you for answering questions and helping. I believe I understand you better. For what it's worth I feel better about you now.

Whenever I see your 'nym I think about a tie I have. It is covered with white sheep, except one black sheep in the center. People always smile when they see my tie and tease me about it. "So, Brother [Blade], you're The Black Sheep today." I just smile and tell them that I wear this tie to remind me to reach out to the lost sheep.

And now I'll think about someone on the 100 Hour Board who calls herself The Black Sheep.

[TheBlackSheep]

That gives me the warm fuzzies.

And hey, any more questions... I'm glad to answer.

[vorpal blade]

We have a Christian obligation to show love, kindness, and humanity toward everyone, and so I would think that BYU would excel at being friendly;

I wish every one believed this. One of my seminary teachers told us in class that it was a sin to be friends with gay people. It was ok to say hi to them but that was as far as any friendship could go without being inappropriate. And he truly believed this.

I think that is really sad. You mean seminary teachers aren't always right?

While I'm at it, whenever I see your logo "I haven't lost my mind - I sold it on ebay" I think about the beautiful Catholic Cathedral in St. Louis. I was looking around one day, admiring everything after the services were over, when the bishop (or some important official there) walked up to me and said, "It makes you wonder, doesn't it, what all this would sell for on ebay." It was just so warm, unexpected, and delightful that I couldn't help laughing in the cathedral. He smiled pleasantly. I don't know if he realized that day that he won a great deal of good will from me.

[Cognoscente]

Dunno, for years when I have heard someone say that something is gay, I always thought it meant messed up/odd/weird or whatever and not some derogatory word for homosexuals. Well until recently that is.

When I grew up "gay" was nothing but an adjective meaning "full of or showing high-spirited merriment."

OK, this is bugging me. You're old, but not THAT old. Unless you grew up in the roaring '20s you have got to be full of it.

I mean, if you're in your early 60's now that means you were our age in the mid to late sixties. I'm pretty sure the drug and sexual revolutions was in full swing then... Or were the Beatles just straight-laced, clean-living young gentlemen?

[vorpal blade]

Dunno, for years when I have heard someone say that something is gay, I always thought it meant messed up/odd/weird or whatever and not some derogatory word for homosexuals. Well until recently that is.

When I grew up "gay" was nothing but an adjective meaning "full of or showing high-spirited merriment."

OK, this is bugging me. You're old, but not THAT old. Unless you grew up in the roaring '20s you have got to be full of it.

I mean, if you're in your early 60's now that means you were our age in the mid to late sixties. I'm pretty sure the drug and sexual revolutions was in full swing then... Or were the Beatles just straight-laced, clean-living young gentlemen?

I was talking to some people recently about how the word "gay" wasn't used in connection with homosexuality, as far as we can remember, when we were in grade school (1950s) and high school (1960-1965). Do you think I'm remembering it incorrectly? That's possible. Perhaps I'm just thinking about how the word was used in the books we would read. I have looked it up (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?sea ... hmode=none) which seems to indicate that the word gay was used earlier to refer to homosexuals, but the OED gives 1951 as the earliest date. It seems to be in dispute. I just don't recall hearing it used as it is today back in the fifties and early sixties. Apparently "gay" as a noun was first used in 1971. I could be wrong.

The drug and sexual revolution came later, as in the late sixties and seventies. At least in the Washington D.C. suburb I lived in. No one I knew or heard of in my High School took any drugs or knew anything about them. A girl who got pregnant dropped out of school in shame. And she didn't get an abortion.

Elvis Presley was more of a shocking, decadent figure than the Beatles. Still, the Beatles were considered rather disturbing to my parent's generation. We thought they were pretty cool. Actually, I didn't associate drugs and sex with the Beatles, and I still don't.

[A Mom, but not yours]

FWIW, I'm a couple of decades younger than Vorpal and the use of the word gay has changed dramatically in my life time. As a child, gay wasn't a word I used often, but I certainly recognized it to mean happy/giddy/something like that. One of my favorite primary songs said, "It's always fun when Grandpa comes, when Grandpa comes we're gay!" I was a bit weirded out when I found out they'd changed the words to the song.

The slang we used for homosexuals, even as a teenager, was probably terms that most people today would consider insulting. And to be honest, most of the time it was probably meant to be. It wasn't until after I was an adult that "gay" was a commonly used word to refer to homosexuals, at least where I lived.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

I think this clearly means that we need to change the definition of the word 'gay' again, just to keep everyone on their toes.

[Avocado]

I believe I am quite a bit younger than both vorpal blade and a Mom, and I also grew up - in California, no less - understanding that "gay" meant "happy." In fact, in elementary school I wrote and recited a poem about my baby brother where I used the phrase "happy and gay." No teachers, school administrators, parents or children seemed to have any problems with interpretation. So, at least a couple of decades ago, the word "gay" had at least a recognizable and acceptable double meaning.

[bismark]

ah, i have warm fuzzies now.

nevertheless people on byu campus now use it as a derogatory term, which i think means something quite different than using it to mean happy.

and two more idiots blathered today about "gay" fashion in the daily universe. here is a gem from one ashlee manwaring of springville utah:

In the Jan. 23 viewpoint, “Diversity and sexism,” the author made it sound like it is mutually exclusive for men to dress fashionable and “gay.”... That is propaganda, they are not mutually exclusive. ... My husband, for one, dresses very fashionably … even more so than me. However, his wardrobe is far from “gay” fashion. I am astonished she would promote “gay” fashion. I understand everyone has their freedom of choice with dress. However, there are
some things that should not be allowed on this campus.

well, first off, if facebook is any indicator, her husband has terrible taste in fashion. second off, i am quite sure saying things like this is quick path to receiving the "blessing" of having a homosexual child in order to learn some humility. i wish her and her "fashionable" husband the best of luck and she better pray hard that her son/daughter never decides to read old issues of the daily universe. idiots.

[Tegan]

Maybe you, The Black Sheep, or someone else could help me speak the same language in regard to the expression “gay friendly.” Tegan says that none of her friends are gay friendly. Do you suppose she means that none of her friends would be her friends if they knew she was gay?

By "gay friendly," I didn't mean that anyone had to condone my choice of lifestyle at all. I'm all about respecting a person's right to have their own beliefs, etc. It wasn't the best choice of phrasing, but I partly meant would they still be my friends. I'm sure they would say they were still my friends, but friendship is more than that. I wanted it not to be awkward basically. However, that's unavoidable when something like this comes up, obviously.

[Portia]

(Although, that said, having seen the way many college guys keep house, I don't know many girls who'd actively choose to live with a bunch of them. ;) )

I would! (If it weren't forbidden . . .) Having them as roommates proper would be awkward outside a relationship, but as flatmates, I think men would come with a lot less drama and passive aggression.

Shortly after I advised all students of all orientations to get a private room pronto, my roommate moved, and I've been living the charmed private room like ever since. Ah, sweet sleep!