LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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TheBlackSheep
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by TheBlackSheep »

yayfulness wrote:As a straight person who can't "disavow" gay marriage, honestly, the message "we don't need you and we don't want you" has never felt so loud and clear.
"But we love you! This is about love!"
yayfulness wrote:I know I can't do much, but for what it's worth, I am sorry that the church I once represented has done something so hurtful.
I was surprisingly touched by this. Thanks.
Katya wrote:I haven't felt so hopeless in a long time.
I'm so sorry. If there is anything I can do please let me know. I am also affected by this much more than I have been by anything else church-related in a long time.
Zedability wrote:I am 110% over my parents telling me that my sexuality doesn't change anything while in the same breath asking why on earth I'd want to share something like that on the Internet.
I can empathize with this to the moon. It blows. I'm sorry.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Katya »

TheBlackSheep wrote:
Katya wrote:I haven't felt so hopeless in a long time.
I'm so sorry. If there is anything I can do please let me know. I am also affected by this much more than I have been by anything else church-related in a long time.
Thanks. I've also been dealing with an (unrelated) stressful family situation, so this is all just happening at what was already a difficult time.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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Katya wrote:
TheBlackSheep wrote:
Katya wrote:I haven't felt so hopeless in a long time.
I'm so sorry. If there is anything I can do please let me know. I am also affected by this much more than I have been by anything else church-related in a long time.
Thanks. I've also been dealing with an (unrelated) stressful family situation, so this is all just happening at what was already a difficult time.
Me, too. I feel you, sister.
thatonemom wrote:Just to chime in with what it's like in the early 30's/older millennals group, by far the biggest response I've seen is shock. Shocked and hurt, or shocked and confident it's all lies. ("That John Dehlin, he's like a mustachioed villain from Old timey movies. Can't trust him!") I'm not sure how that second group is feeling after the PR propo from yesterday evening, but I imagine they'll move into the hurt and confused column. I don't know of anyone who is saying this is a good thing, other than that "Frozen has an evil gay agenda" blog. I saw exactly one response about how it's not or job to question our leaders, only to obey.
That type of fanaticism scares me.
Unfortunately, lots of people are taking that tack and similar ones.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Zedability »

My issue with the "don't question leaders" tack is that it's counter-productive. I mean, I am one of those people who arrived at peace with it because I believe God appeared to Joseph Smith and that God promised that the Church would always be true, ie not fall into apostasy again. However, the general tone I seem to hear from a lot of people is "Just have faith and shut up. Don't you sustain the prophets and believe in the Church like I do? Find a different church if you don't like it; the Church won't change to suit you." And what people hear is, "Since you currently don't believe in this policy, you also must not truly believe in the prophets or the Church. The Church is wrong for you, and we don't want you anyways, so you should leave." That is literally the opposite message that anyone should be sending. People are essentially telling people to doubt their faith instead of doubt their doubts.

Yes, Christ said he was going to send a sword and if you're not with me you're against me and all that. He also said he'd accept all who come unto him. Alma said that even a desire to believe was sufficient, and that that desire could help you work your way towards accepting a PORTION of his words. Christ said "come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Jacob said that Christ "denieth none that come unto him." In 3 Nephi, Christ says to not cast people out of the synogogues, but to continue to minister to them and see if they eventually have a change of heart. If people are questioning, doubting, or struggling with this policy, the message should be that we want them to stay, even with those doubts or outright disbelief, and keep being friends and extending love. You don't have to back down from your position of belief or pretend that the Church's policy is changing or that the Church no longer expects you to believe certain things in order to be welcoming to those who don't believe. Instead of saying "if you don't like it, here's the door."

I also think that instead of hearing reasons for the policy, a lot of people just want to hear, "That hurts. I'm sorry you're hurting and I don't blame you for being sad. I love you." Full stop. Leave the justifications for when people feel less attacked.

And yeah, what I hear from "don't be ashamed of it but why tell people?" is "don't be ashamed of it, but keep it a secret. So I guess be a little ashamed. Not too much – don't be sad – but a little." It's like, if it doesn't change anything and isn't something to be ashamed of, why deliberately avoid mentioning it in relevant situations?

At least my parents and I had a good talk, though. I think the #1 takeaway was, we should talk more in general. Also, #1 lesson learned: COME OUT TO YOUR PARENTS BEFORE THE INTERNET. Haha.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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I think the thing that scares me about all the "just trust in the Church leaders or you're wrong" and "this is where we start seeing the fair-weather Mormons leave" is thinking about what might have happened if I'd heard it a couple years ago. I was seriously depressed, and while I was trying to hold on to my faith, I could tell I probably wouldn't in the long run. Rhetoric like that, at the wrong time, very well could have convinced me that it would be better for me to die a Mormon than live to leave the Church. Obviously that is in my past and I don't expect I'll ever be in that situation again, but at the time I'm sure it would have at least crossed my mind.

What scares me the most is that I know there are people out there right now who feel exactly like that.

And instead of hearing comforting words from members or from the Church, they're being called weak or compared to chaff. No, not explicitly, but comments that talk about sorting the faithful from the unfaithful will feel like they apply specifically to them.

And maybe I'm missing something because I didn't listen to Elder Christofferson's discussion, but what's been notably absent is *any* indication from the Church that this is a policy that creates real pain in real people. Even just an acknowledgement that "this is what we have to do, but we realize some people will find it hurtful and we regret their pain" would be... honestly, groundbreaking, because I don't know that the Church has ever done that.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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yayfulness wrote:I think the thing that scares me about all the "just trust in the Church leaders or you're wrong" and "this is where we start seeing the fair-weather Mormons leave" is thinking about what might have happened if I'd heard it a couple years ago. I was seriously depressed, and while I was trying to hold on to my faith, I could tell I probably wouldn't in the long run. Rhetoric like that, at the wrong time, very well could have convinced me that it would be better for me to die a Mormon than live to leave the Church. Obviously that is in my past and I don't expect I'll ever be in that situation again, but at the time I'm sure it would have at least crossed my mind.

What scares me the most is that I know there are people out there right now who feel exactly like that.

And instead of hearing comforting words from members or from the Church, they're being called weak or compared to chaff. No, not explicitly, but comments that talk about sorting the faithful from the unfaithful will feel like they apply specifically to them.

And maybe I'm missing something because I didn't listen to Elder Christofferson's discussion, but what's been notably absent is *any* indication from the Church that this is a policy that creates real pain in real people. Even just an acknowledgement that "this is what we have to do, but we realize some people will find it hurtful and we regret their pain" would be... honestly, groundbreaking, because I don't know that the Church has ever done that.
ALL OF THIS.

I think there's a distinct psychological component to this where people feel smug about being part of the "wheat" and "making it through the sifting." And they forget Christ's counsel to leave the ninety and nine, to eat with publicans and sinners, to mourn with those that mourn and administer to the afflicted.

Why was the War in Heaven a war? As I've thought about it, it's not because we really needed to fight for God's plan to be the chosen plan. He's God. His plan was going to happen no matter what. The "War in Heaven" refers to the fact that we loved our brothers and sisters, and we wanted to do anything it took to help them against Lucifer. I firmly believe we were sad about the 1/3 that left, not smug about being in the 2/3 left behind.

Literally any example in the scriptures where people rejoice a bunch about being "chosen" or being the "special righteous followers who aren't sinners like the rest of these people" are, frankly, examples of people who are also sinning. Ie the Zoramites and the Pharisees.

Like you said, just acknowledge people are hurting and say you're sad that they're sad.

My parent's reaction to me coming out has been largely positive, aside from the justifiable hurt that I didn't tell them first and the whole "why are you telling people this" thing. I'm married to a MAN in the TEMPLE and am active and have arrived at peace with the policy. Yet the reaction and rhetoric of so many members still has me so stressed that I feel dizzy and sick and on a high stress response. Even the small amount of negativity from my parents has been incredibly depressing. Of course so many LGBT members attempt suicide. Of course they get tired of being in a Church where members consistently make them feel much, much worse on a daily basis. We as members should be sad about this and want to extend love and compassion, which is a completely different thing than disavowing the policy. Instead of wanting to get as much wheat as possible, people want to get rid of the "chaff" ASAP and don't care if a substantial portion of the wheat gets driven away with it.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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My LGBT friends have been including numbers for suicide hotlines in their posts on the subject. Calls to Utah hotlines were more than double normal levels last night. And I was one of those on the brink. In the cold light of day, I'm still barely getting by. It feels like I've been punched in the face and then had friends turn away. Some posts (from people I know and care about) have outright said that LGBT people are just whiners trying to manipulate the Church right now. And those posts about separating out the faithful from the unfaithful are brutal. I'm sick of it all, and I feel like there's not anything I can do to really help my friends who are also struggling. When all of the rhetoric from the Church's defenders is about how this policy will help the children and I'm watching the heartbreak of the parents, it seems pretty clear that making the parents devastated and suicidal isn't going to help the children.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by TheBlackSheep »

Oh Integrating Editor. I am so sorry. I have been all borderline suicidal/self harm-y, too, and I'm not in the thick of it like you are.

I'm seriously considering coming to the mass resignation event in one week. While I'm in town, if I come, I'd really like to talk to you, and whoever else is struggling. I live in Vegas now where I am less familiar with the struggling/post Mormons, and I live in a house filled with super TBMs.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Amity »

I've been in a mild state of shock for the last two days since this policy came to light. I'm still working my way through the emotions I'm having, and reading what you all have been saying is helpful. Thank you in particular to yayfulness, Zedability, and TheBlackSheep for helping me put words to some of my feelings.

Like yayfulness, I want to sincerely apologize to those of you here who are being impacted by this policy, either directly or through your family members. I wish so much that the church would not cause you this pain and grief. I do not agree with the policy and do not think it is kind or Christ-like in any way. I think this might be the start of a sabbatical from Mormonism for me, because I cannot in good conscience support what the LDS church is doing here.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by TheBlackSheep »

If you need support now, or especially if you decide to take that sabbatical and needs support, please reach out and get it. That process is very difficult and can feel very lonely. Please don't do it alone.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Violet »

I'm not sure I have anything else to add to this post. This may just be rambling, but I hope all of you are safe and surrounded by supportive people.
yayfulness wrote:I think the thing that scares me about all the "just trust in the Church leaders or you're wrong" and "this is where we start seeing the fair-weather Mormons leave" is thinking about what might have happened if I'd heard it a couple years ago. I was seriously depressed, and while I was trying to hold on to my faith, I could tell I probably wouldn't in the long run. Rhetoric like that, at the wrong time, very well could have convinced me that it would be better for me to die a Mormon than live to leave the Church. Obviously that is in my past and I don't expect I'll ever be in that situation again, but at the time I'm sure it would have at least crossed my mind.

What scares me the most is that I know there are people out there right now who feel exactly like that.
My first thoughts when I started reading the reactions were of the many people I met at BYU who were in this situation (when I had similar thoughts myself). A lot of them are a part of the LGBT community. So many of them are in so much pain, even as they've left the tumultuous part of a faith crisis. Like The Black Sheep said, it has deeply affected people who have been long removed.

I was explaining the issue to some of my friends today (all non-Mormon, but had seen stuff through Facebook posts of other Mormons). As I was explaining it, I realized I felt the same way as I did when I explained some FLDS practices to the same friends. Upset, anxious, a little disgusted. If I'm feeling this shaken by this policy—as far removed as I am—I can't imagine how devastated anyone affected by this policy is feeling right now.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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Integrating Editor wrote:Calls to Utah hotlines were more than double normal levels last night.
I mentioned this in a Facebook post asking people to be considerate of others, and I've had a couple requests for a source. Is there an online source I can use, or should I attribute it to you ("a friend who's in a position to know") as a primary source?
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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yayfulness, it came from an employee at one of the hotlines, so there's no source to link to right now. I'll let you know if I have something more citation-friendly from the same source later on.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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TBS, definitely let me know if you come up. We should get together.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

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It's looking fairly certain. I'm thinking Friday through Monday so I can see my old shrink. I'll let you know when it is for sure.

Also, IE, remember that people care about you. I know how little that can matter when suicidality gets real, but it's still true.

And everybody, thanks for the tone of this thread. It has been a really comforting thing to me.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Whistler »

I've also been struggling to understand the new policy. Thank you for posting your thoughts everyone, I feel like I'm not alone in my shock/disbelief/puzzlement.

I feel it's especially ironic to tell certain children they can't join our church when a questioning teenager with the courage to do something other than what his parents did founded our religion. It's almost like... the more faithful you are, the more hurtful the policy feels, because the Holy Ghost can be such a comfort. I understand not wanting to come between children and their parents... but I think parents can/should be supportive of their teenagers pursuing different beliefs or lifestyles.

The most charitable reasons I can come up with for the policies are:
1) Family love/harmony is more important than belonging to a religious group that your parents probably disagree with (but what about part-member families and you know, converts?)
2) having a "child of record" sets up certain expectations that encouraged church members to pester children of SSM more than they should (this seems lame, but Christofferson alluded to it)???
3) whoever initiated/made the policy didn't realize it would go public and make the church look like haters

I can also think of a lot of uncharitable reasons. I think the policy hurts the people we need more of in the church. :-(
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Emiliana »

Wow. I don't have much of a personal connection to this, other than y'all. But I am so sorry for all the stress and strain this is causing y'all and other LGBT&allies in the Mormon community.

A logistical question: According to an article I read, children of LGBT couples can't be baptized until they are 18. What normally happens in the case of converts who are under 18? Will the church baptize them if their parents are opposed or if they're non-members? I am just wondering how different this is from how other minors are treated.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Zedability »

You need parental consent if you're a minor. If you're married, you need your husband or wife's consent.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Amity »

Yeah, what Zedability said. The change now is that even if the child's gay or lesbian parent gives their permission, the child cannot get baptized until they're 18.
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Re: LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

Post by Zedability »

Well what I'm saying is the parental consent thing has always been the rule. Whereas children of gay couples have to wait until 18 no matter what, if I'm understanding correctly.
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