#47600 Proposition 8

[Imogen]

am i on mute or something? CHURCHES TURN PEOPLE DOWN FOR MARRIAGES ALL THE TIME FOR VARIOUS REASONS!!! THE LDS CHURCH CANNOT BE SUED FOR THAT!!!

oy people. i understand you're worried about it, but sheesh. we still have the first amendment and your church will be covered by it, just like every other church that would refuse to perform homosexual marriage ceremonies.

and also, all the arguments you guys have used against gay marriage are IDENTICAL to arguments used against legalizing interracial marriage. it makes me laugh how nothing changes through history. we really are doomed to repeat ourselves.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Another interesting point that Vorpal brought up is the Church's charitable organizations, like LDS Family Services. That program may be affected as they don't adopt to same gender couples.

[Imogen]

Another interesting point that Vorpal brought up is the Church's charitable organizations, like LDS Family Services. That program may be affected as they don't adopt to same gender couples.

a lot of that will depend on whether they accept federal funding. if the boy scouts can turn away homosexual scouts and scout leaders (homophobic paranoia at its most visible), than it should be the same for those organizations as long as they don't take government funding. once you let the government give you money you kind of have to do what they say or not take the money.

[Unit of Energy]

a lot of that will depend on whether they accept federal funding. if the boy scouts can turn away homosexual scouts and scout leaders (homophobic paranoia at its most visible), than it should be the same for those organizations as long as they don't take government funding. once you let the government give you money you kind of have to do what they say or not take the money.

Imogen has a point. It's when we quit funding things ourselves that we run into problems. Which is why I think the most important and valid reason to vote for Prop 8 we have discussed is the Prophet has asked us to. I would vote for it anyway, but my reasons are my own and probably not valid in an argument. Has the church been sued in Massachusetts yet? Not that I've heard of. And gay marriage has been legal there for a while.

[361]

am i on mute or something? CHURCHES TURN PEOPLE DOWN FOR MARRIAGES ALL THE TIME FOR VARIOUS REASONS!!! THE LDS CHURCH CANNOT BE SUED FOR THAT!!!

oy people. i understand you're worried about it, but sheesh. we still have the first amendment and your church will be covered by it, just like every other church that would refuse to perform homosexual marriage ceremonies.

and also, all the arguments you guys have used against gay marriage are IDENTICAL to arguments used against legalizing interracial marriage. it makes me laugh how nothing changes through history. we really are doomed to repeat ourselves.

SHHHh everybody! I think I heard something!

[vorpal blade]

and also, all the arguments you guys have used against gay marriage are IDENTICAL to arguments used against legalizing interracial marriage. it makes me laugh how nothing changes through history. we really are doomed to repeat ourselves.

A number of people try to compare the civil rights movement to that of the gay rights movement. Here is a video about what some African-Americans think about that.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/lin ... 1784553601

[vorpal blade]

Here is a video about the experience of a family in Massachusetts who complained about the same-sex indoctrination of their children.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/lin ... 1784521903

It is interesting that this sort of thing has already started to occur in California because same-sex marriage is legal. Last week a class of 5 and 6 year-olds were taken to a same-sex marriage ceremony in San Francisco. It was a field trip during school hours, sponsored and supported by the school.

[Imogen]

Here is a video about the experience of a family in Massachusetts who complained about the same-sex indoctrination of their children.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/lin ... 1784521903

It is interesting that this sort of thing has already started to occur in California because same-sex marriage is legal. Last week a class of 5 and 6 year-olds were taken to a same-sex marriage ceremony in San Francisco. It was a field trip during school hours, sponsored and supported by the school.

i would love for my kids to go on a field trip like that. i think it would be wonderful.

[Werf_Must]

Here is a video about the experience of a family in Massachusetts who complained about the same-sex indoctrination of their children.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/lin ... 1784521903

It is interesting that this sort of thing has already started to occur in California because same-sex marriage is legal. Last week a class of 5 and 6 year-olds were taken to a same-sex marriage ceremony in San Francisco. It was a field trip during school hours, sponsored and supported by the school.

i would love for my kids to go on a field trip like that. i think it would be wonderful.

When I was a grade schooler I was happy to get out of school anytime I could, and weddings are exciting!

I don't understand the church's problem with it--even now, if I had kids I would teach them that some people have different beliefs than we do, and that Jesus said love everyone and treat them kindly and fairly.

Who you marry is none of my business...

Allowing same-sex couple to adopt is another story completely for me, and that is the only problem that I would even begin to have... and that is the only reason I would even be tempted to vote no (This is pretending that the church had not taken a stand on it) and yet they allow single people to adopt, do they not? So yeah, I a somewhat conflicted, and am just glad I don't live in a state that is voting on it!

[jooniper]

I'm a little late in joining this conversation, but here's my take on it:
I don't mind same-sex unions. I do wish we'd not redefine the word marriage to apply to same-sex couples, but I don't think preventing that will solve the problem. Same-sex marriage is a symptom of a problem, and not even the most severe symptom. If monogamy is the worst the homosexuals attain to, then I'm ok with that. There are far less moral things in the world.

I think rather than devote our energy and judgement into homosexuals wanting to have committed relationships, we should work on spreading the gospel and the news that there is something higher than marriage for time only. There will be homosexuals whether we condone their marriages or not... but if we stop judging, stop spending our efforts stopping them and start spending our effort spreading love, compassion, and the doctrine of the church, the problem will become less and less, or at least affect the world less and less, and we won't have to worry about the symptoms anymore.
I know it's naive and overly optimistic sounding but it definitely is more Christ-like and it's something we have more control over than whether or not a complete stranger is attracted to people of the same sex.

ETA: I'd be fine with my kids going to a same-sex marriage. I'd use it as a teaching opportunity. "Now kids, what was good about the marriage? ... Is it sad they can only be married while they're alive, then not when their dead? Why are temple marriages important...?"

[NerdGirl]

I hope no one minds me jumping into the conversation, but I just watched that video with the parents complaining about the "indoctrination" of their children. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with teaching kids that same-sex couples exist, whether same-sex marriage ends up being legal or not. They're not teaching 5-year-olds how to have gay sex. They're teaching them that these relationships exist, which will hopefully make things easier on the kids who do happen to have two mommies or two daddies (and. let's face it, that happens whether we like it or not there are gay couples with children and those kids probably have a hard enough time as it is without all of the kids at school treating them like freaks). And those parents who had to all of a sudden talk to their 7-year-old about homosexuality and about how some people do things that we don't think are right? Well, I think I would have that conversation with my kids way before they were 7 years old! I wouldn't have discussed any explicit details about homosexuality, but I feel like with the world we live in today, we need to teach our children what our beliefs are about these issues as soon as they are old enough to understand, and we also need to teach them that we still love our brothers and sisters even if they do things that are wrong.

I also think all of this fear-mongering about what's going to happen to kids in schools if same-sex marriage is legalized is a bit unnecessary. I think that the important thing here is that marriage is something that is sacred and was instituted by God. To me this is really just an issue of people redefining something sacred, and also about the Supreme Court of California overturning the decision of the people of that state. I have absolutely no problem with same-sex couples having civil unions and having all of the same rights that married people do (and the Church doesn't seem to either, if you look at the information on lds.org and preservingmarriage.org). If anyone asks me my opinion on same-sex marriage (which they usually don't, because it's not something controversial where I am at the moment), I simply explain what I believe about the sacredness of marriage and family, but say also that I believe that same-sex couples should have all of the rights that heterosexual couples have, even though I think that their unions should have a different name. I don't feel like I need to have any dire predictions about what problems same-sex marriage may or may not cause in order for that to be a valid opinion.

And I'm not at all worried about this causing legal problems for the Church. For one thing, same-sex marriage has been legal in Canada for about three years now, and it hasn't caused any problems for the Church. The Church has had some pretty major problems with the US government before, and it's survived. We just need to remember that no matter what happens in our societies, no unhallowed hand will stop the work of God. We do need to do our best to let the world know what our beliefs are, but we don't need to be afraid of what will happen if the world doesn't accept those beliefs. God will take care of us.

[Imogen]

and also, all the arguments you guys have used against gay marriage are IDENTICAL to arguments used against legalizing interracial marriage. it makes me laugh how nothing changes through history. we really are doomed to repeat ourselves.

A number of people try to compare the civil rights movement to that of the gay rights movement. Here is a video about what some African-Americans think about that.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/lin ... 1784553601

also, i AM black (not african american! i'm not from africa!), so your video does me no good. i can just talk to my black relatives.

[Imogen]

I'm a little late in joining this conversation, but here's my take on it:
I don't mind same-sex unions. I do wish we'd not redefine the word marriage to apply to same-sex couples, but I don't think preventing that will solve the problem. Same-sex marriage is a symptom of a problem, and not even the most severe symptom. If monogamy is the worst the homosexuals attain to, then I'm ok with that. There are far less moral things in the world.

I think rather than devote our energy and judgement into homosexuals wanting to have committed relationships, we should work on spreading the gospel and the news that there is something higher than marriage for time only. There will be homosexuals whether we condone their marriages or not... but if we stop judging, stop spending our efforts stopping them and start spending our effort spreading love, compassion, and the doctrine of the church, the problem will become less and less, or at least affect the world less and less, and we won't have to worry about the symptoms anymore.
I know it's naive and overly optimistic sounding but it definitely is more Christ-like and it's something we have more control over than whether or not a complete stranger is attracted to people of the same sex.

ETA: I'd be fine with my kids going to a same-sex marriage. I'd use it as a teaching opportunity. "Now kids, what was good about the marriage? ... Is it sad they can only be married while they're alive, then not when their dead? Why are temple marriages important...?"

but here's the thing, for YOU it's an opportunity to teach your children an important part of your religion (eternal marriage). since i don't believe in that, for me it's an opportunity to show my children that people love in many different ways, and we must respect them and treat them as equals. that's the beauty of humans. we can both find positive aspects in something for totally different reasons. i'd also prefer my child be gay and be in a monogamous relationship than be straight and engaging in risky sexual behaviors.

and really i think this all comes down to a stupid word. who CARES what we call it? why is it all about this WORD. the meanings of words change all the time. i just think people get too wrapped up in their pre-conceived notions to remember there are people behind this issue. not propositions, not words, not "sins". just people who love each other and want the law to recognize that. i just don't understand why someone would DESIRE making someone's love less than their own in the eyes of the law. when my parents got married, it was still illegal in some states because they were an interracial couple. the law was ignored, but was still on the books, and it makes me sick to think at some point in our recent history people thought my parents love was "less than" their own.

[Eponine]

The problem isn't educating our children about the world. We live in the world, we have to learn about it. The problem arises when immoral things are glorified. For example: I believe that teaching about all religions in school is a good thing. It allows us to learn about many other respectable beliefs and traditions. However, I do not condone a teacher praising and idealizing one religion over another. It's one thing to say, "Isn't it good that Buhidists respect the Earth?" and another to say "Isn't this really the best way to live?" I hold the same opinion on lifestyles, whether that be vegetarinism or homosexuality. It's perfectly fine to bring up different life-styles in schools (although I really believe that second-grade is a little too early to be discussing these kinds of things in detail). It's another thing entirely to be indoctrinating children. It is this indoctrination that was going on in schools in MA after same-sex marriage was legalized. The teacher read a book to her class called "the King and King," a story which glorified gay relationships (the book ends with a picture of two men kissing and the queen (one man's mother) crying tears of happiness, for heaven's sake!). The parents of one child went to the school district and asked why they weren't notified that something sexual in nature was being discussed in schools (because parents have the right to opt their children out of sexual discussions). The school district replied that it wasn't sexual, it was a lifestyle, so they did not have to notify parents. Right now the parents are appealing to the Supreme Courts to have to option to exclude their children from such discussions. They don't want to change the curriculum or insist that homosexuality not be talked about at all; they just want an option. I'm afraid of having that option taken away from me, as well.

Also, if you don't think that is indocrtination, how about this?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

[Eponine]

And a PS: just for those of you who still believe that this prop is all about the use of a word, it's not. There's an adgenda. Just look at this website made by gay people in Canada, where Gay marriage is legalized.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.asp ... PLATE_ID=1

This site has a list of things that homosexuals in Canada want now that they have use of the word. Just a word?

PS: There are a few inappropriate cartoons, just as a heads up

[Werf_Must]

I admit, that scares me Eponine, I hope America never does... basically any of that

[Eponine]

Before I sign off for now, might I also share this article:
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/02 ... holyfield2
It's about a police officer who is also a pastor, making this something that could happen in our church, easily, becuase all of our clergy have outside jobs. This man, in the course of conducting a Christian funeral, made remarks about homosexuality being a sin (something easily backed-up in the Bible). Some of his fellow police officers were in attendance and after the ceremony, the police officer/pastor was not given his promotion and pay-raise that he had previously been in line for, and his superiors used the funeral service as the reason for this. Nothing is going to change? Things already have, my friends.

This world is going to get a lot more immoral before the second coming. I think that, even if Prop 8 wins out, homosexuality will be rampant, and I understand that I am going to have to teach my children. It's not the school's responsibility to teach your children, it's yours. But really, do you want look back 30 years from now and say "I wish I had fought harder against immorality when I had the chance?" I don't.

[Imogen]

guys, i think eponine's comments have finally pushed me over my tolerance edge for disparaging remarks about homosexuality. i respect that you guys believe certain things, but to say that homosexuality is immoral and a signal of the second coming just seems alarmist and silly to me. homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time. it's been acceptable or not on a changing basis.

i just can't bear people saying that the people i love most in the world and i are going to hell or don't deserve full rights because of something we have no control over. so i'm gonna have to check out of the board now. it's been fun.

[jooniper]

Ah, nothing like a site with "where queers conspire" at the top to enlighten us of the serious political agenda of homosexuals (honestly it took me a while just to convince myself the site was even semi-serious and not a parody).

As for the kids being taken to a marriage, my beef with it has more to do with that having NOTHING to do with academia... I'd have the same level of annoyance if it were a straight marriage.

As for the cop being discriminated against, note that the article is about him suing. That means he (and now the court listening to his case) realizes that discrimination may have taken place. No legislative body is yet condoning that type of discrimination, nor do I imagine that they will in the near future. And I guarantee that for every anti-homosexual-agenda person who is discriminated against, there are 5 homosexuals who are discriminated against to a worse degree. It's not right either direction. That's why we have the ability to take such things to court.

But really, do you want look back 30 years from now and say "I wish I had fought harder against immorality when I had the chance?" I don't.

I worry far more about looking back in 30 years and saying "man, I wish I would have spent my energy on things I had control over, like spreading the gospel and helping all God's children know that he loves them and there is a higher plan". Fighting against gay marriage isn't going to stop individuals from sinning. The world is going to keep getting less and less moral. Judgment and "forbidding" sins isn't going to get us anywhere. The only part of it we have control over is what we choose to do with our own lives and our own families, and what ways we share the gospel with individuals.

[Eponine]

In response to Imogen, no one ever said anything about anyone going to Hell, or about this being a signal of the second coming. I believe he also said that we have rights to our beliefs, and the fact that homosexuality is a sin is a belief. I think that people need to ask more questions before they think that "immoral" or even "sin" means hell. Really. Also, with the second coming reference, I was saying that the world will get worse. That is a fact generally acknowledged by the religious, no? I never said that not passing prop 8 is a sign of the burning of the world.

also, jooniper, yes, the man is suing, but will he prevail? And if he does, does that mean that this won't affect you, or me, or my husband, father, brother, family? There may be many cases where people sue successfully for discrimintaion, but all it takes is one unsuccessful case for this kind of discrimination to become the norm. There was also a doctor being sued for using religious beliefs as his reason to not help gay and lesbian couples have babies. I know that spreading the gospel is a great and noble way to fight immorality, and I know that the world is going to get worse before it gets better, but does that mean I should stand back and just watch it get worse? We're commanded to be politically active and vote in our communities just as much as we're commanded to spread the gospel. We're supposed to vote for and uphold righteous leaders and policies.

I want an argument besides "why not?" I've already explained why I think it would be overall detrimental to the world to leagalize same-sex marriage. I have proof that things are already changing. what proof do you have?

And just a little food-for-thought, people all over the world realise that this is not just about a word. Many people object to gay marriage because of this, Including gay people: http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 0806.shtml