Moderator: Marduk
vorpal blade wrote:What I am trying to accomplish here is to clearly identify that what habiba is saying is not balanced and fair.
i don't think of myself as pro-arab, but i think it takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that the US was a completely innocent victim on 9/11.vorpal blade wrote:But you can be so pro-Arab that you believe the U.S. was at fault for 9/11.
Sir, you do much mistake me! I love hearing what the other side is saying. Apparently this sort of thing is taught in many of the schools by the experts. It's very common in certain circles. It may be all you've heard on the subject. Hearing the other side, and what habiba says, gives me a source of entertainment, and provides me the opportunity to try to refute it, or at least challenge it. Why would I want to stifle that? (So, dude, what were ya thinkin'?)Nanti-SARRMM wrote:Dude, what is balanced and fair concerning Israel and the situation they are in? Even if it is Arab propaganda, it at least lets us hear what the other side says.vorpal blade wrote: I agree with you that we need to see others' perspective. What I am trying to accomplish here is to clearly identify that what habiba is saying is not balanced and fair. It is Arab propaganda, and it isn't right. Once understood as such it is a good thing to hear what they have to say.
There is Israeli propaganda, and Arab propaganda, and you seem upset that at what you think habiba gave us as pro-arab propaganda.
I'm sorry to hear you say that. I think it takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that this slaughter of innocent men, women, and children was in the smallest degree the fault of the United States. The thought that those who were killed were in any way, shape, form, or measure responsible for such a barbaric act is appalling to me. Such terrorist acts are never excusable in the least degree by perceived injustices supposedly perpetrated by the United States.bismark wrote:vorpal blade wrote:What I am trying to accomplish here is to clearly identify that what habiba is saying is not balanced and fair.i don't think of myself as pro-arab, but i think it takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that the US was a completely innocent victim on 9/11.vorpal blade wrote:But you can be so pro-Arab that you believe the U.S. was at fault for 9/11.
who said it was excusable? i'm all for hunting down bin laden and giving him and his cronies what they deserve. but you can't seriously claim that US policy in the middle east has always been handled correctly. to all of those whiney republicans worried about security: maybe instead of taking off our shoes at the airport, we could work on building good relationships and not starting wars for profit. having a better image and better relationships in the middle east could have stopped 9/11. taking off my shoes certainly would not have.vorpal blade wrote:I'm sorry to hear you say that. I think it takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that this slaughter of innocent men, women, and children was in the smallest degree the fault of the United States. The thought that those who were killed were in any way, shape, form, or measure responsible for such a barbaric act is appalling to me. Such terrorist acts are never excusable in the least degree by perceived injustices supposedly perpetrated by the United States.
i think i love you more every time you comment on this board. please never change.bismark wrote:who said it was excusable? i'm all for hunting down bin laden and giving him and his cronies what they deserve. but you can't seriously claim that US policy in the middle east has always been handled correctly. to all of those whiney republicans worried about security: maybe instead of taking off our shoes at the airport, we could work on building good relationships and not starting wars for profit. having a better image and better relationships in the middle east could have stopped 9/11. taking off my shoes certainly would not have.vorpal blade wrote:I'm sorry to hear you say that. I think it takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that this slaughter of innocent men, women, and children was in the smallest degree the fault of the United States. The thought that those who were killed were in any way, shape, form, or measure responsible for such a barbaric act is appalling to me. Such terrorist acts are never excusable in the least degree by perceived injustices supposedly perpetrated by the United States.
Well, your girlfriend agrees with you.bismark wrote: who said it was excusable? i'm all for hunting down bin laden and giving him and his cronies what they deserve. but you can't seriously claim that US policy in the middle east has always been handled correctly. to all of those whiney republicans worried about security: maybe instead of taking off our shoes at the airport, we could work on building good relationships and not starting wars for profit. having a better image and better relationships in the middle east could have stopped 9/11. taking off my shoes certainly would not have.
What I get from this is that for starters we would have to stop supporting Israel. We would have to withdraw all our military forces from the Middle East. We would also have to change our Constitution so that we were ruled by Shariah law.The attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwÄ issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman.[123][124][125] This statement begins by quoting the Koran as saying, "slay the pagans wherever ye find them" and extrapolates this to conclude that it is the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere."[125] Bin Laden elaborated on this theme in his "Letter to America" of October 2002: "you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind: You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator."[126]
Many of the eventual findings of the 9/11 Commission with respect to motives have been supported by other experts. Counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke explains in his 2004 book, Against All Enemies, that U.S. foreign policy decisions including "confronting Moscow in Afghanistan, inserting the U.S. military in the Persian Gulf," and "strengthening Israel as a base for a southern flank against the Soviets" contributed to al-Qaeda's motives.[127] Others, such as Jason Burke, foreign correspondent for The Observer, focus on a more political aspect to the motive, stating that "bin Laden is an activist with a very clear sense of what he wants and how he hopes to achieve it. Those means may be far outside the norms of political activity [...] but his agenda is a basically political one."[128]
A variety of scholarship has also focused on bin Laden's overall strategy as a motive for the attacks. For instance, correspondent Peter Bergen argues that the attacks were part of a plan to cause the United States to increase its military and cultural presence in the Middle East, thereby forcing Muslims to confront the "evils" of a non-Muslim government and establish conservative Islamic governments in the region.[129] Michael Scott Doran, correspondent for Foreign Affairs, further emphasizes the "mythic" use of the term "spectacular" in bin Laden's response to the attacks, explaining that he was attempting to provoke a visceral reaction in the Middle East and ensure that Muslim citizens would react as violently as possible to an increase in U.S. involvement in their region.[130]
not is girlfriend. live in another state. just wanted to make that clear.vorpal blade wrote:Well, your girlfriend agrees with you.bismark wrote: who said it was excusable? i'm all for hunting down bin laden and giving him and his cronies what they deserve. but you can't seriously claim that US policy in the middle east has always been handled correctly. to all of those whiney republicans worried about security: maybe instead of taking off our shoes at the airport, we could work on building good relationships and not starting wars for profit. having a better image and better relationships in the middle east could have stopped 9/11. taking off my shoes certainly would not have.
Your comment got me to thinking, what could we have done in good conscience that would have stopped 9/11? Somehow polishing a better image and developing better relationships just didn't seem sufficient to me. What could we have done to stop World War II? Been nicer to Hitler? Could better relationships have prevent the Holocaust? We may never know. And then I began to wonder, what did the terrorists have to say was their motives? What does Osama bin Laden say about it? Here is an interesting quote from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacksWhat I get from this is that for starters we would have to stop supporting Israel. We would have to withdraw all our military forces from the Middle East. We would also have to change our Constitution so that we were ruled by Shariah law.The attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwÄ issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman.[123][124][125] This statement begins by quoting the Koran as saying, "slay the pagans wherever ye find them" and extrapolates this to conclude that it is the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere."[125] Bin Laden elaborated on this theme in his "Letter to America" of October 2002: "you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind: You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator."[126]
Many of the eventual findings of the 9/11 Commission with respect to motives have been supported by other experts. Counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke explains in his 2004 book, Against All Enemies, that U.S. foreign policy decisions including "confronting Moscow in Afghanistan, inserting the U.S. military in the Persian Gulf," and "strengthening Israel as a base for a southern flank against the Soviets" contributed to al-Qaeda's motives.[127] Others, such as Jason Burke, foreign correspondent for The Observer, focus on a more political aspect to the motive, stating that "bin Laden is an activist with a very clear sense of what he wants and how he hopes to achieve it. Those means may be far outside the norms of political activity [...] but his agenda is a basically political one."[128]
A variety of scholarship has also focused on bin Laden's overall strategy as a motive for the attacks. For instance, correspondent Peter Bergen argues that the attacks were part of a plan to cause the United States to increase its military and cultural presence in the Middle East, thereby forcing Muslims to confront the "evils" of a non-Muslim government and establish conservative Islamic governments in the region.[129] Michael Scott Doran, correspondent for Foreign Affairs, further emphasizes the "mythic" use of the term "spectacular" in bin Laden's response to the attacks, explaining that he was attempting to provoke a visceral reaction in the Middle East and ensure that Muslim citizens would react as violently as possible to an increase in U.S. involvement in their region.[130]
It appears to me, then, that the only thing we could have to done to avoid 9/11 are a list of things that are totally unacceptable to me. Are you willing to stop supporting Israel? Are you willing to trash the Constitution and live by Shariah law? Not me.
