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Foreman
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Post by Foreman »

Foreman wrote:I am, in all honesty, probably one of the most conservative writers. I actually agree with you on a lot of points, but your expressions of them often come off as absolutist and intolerant, which is not what we are about. Maybe it's not what you're about either, but that's honestly what your posts sound like: that anyone who thinks differently from you is not of a different opinion, but is stupid and wrong.
Foreman's handy tip of the day: watch for commas! In this example, Foreman used a comma to offset the final clause in his second statement, thereby demonstrating that it was present to modify "of a different opinion." Written differently (but still equivalently), it might say "that's honestly what your posts sound like: that anyone who thinks differently is stupid and wrong, not just of a different opinion." Everyone got it? Maybe if it had been written differently, it might have been more clear, but if you actually look at the sentence, it does say what I meant.

But, just since it happened: did you like when my post made you feel like I (intolerantly) thought you were stupid and wrong? Apparently not. Maybe that's why you're getting some bad press for using the same tactic.

As for the other stuff, if you don't see why attacking another person and then being surprised when you're attacked back, I don't know what to tell you. Good luck with that life philosophy.
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vorpal blade
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Post by vorpal blade »

Foreman wrote:
Foreman wrote:I am, in all honesty, probably one of the most conservative writers. I actually agree with you on a lot of points, but your expressions of them often come off as absolutist and intolerant, which is not what we are about. Maybe it's not what you're about either, but that's honestly what your posts sound like: that anyone who thinks differently from you is not of a different opinion, but is stupid and wrong.
Foreman's handy tip of the day: watch for commas! In this example, Foreman used a comma to offset the final clause in his second statement, thereby demonstrating that it was present to modify "of a different opinion." Written differently (but still equivalently), it might say "that's honestly what your posts sound like: that anyone who thinks differently is stupid and wrong, not just of a different opinion." Everyone got it? Maybe if it had been written differently, it might have been more clear, but if you actually look at the sentence, it does say what I meant.

But, just since it happened: did you like when my post made you feel like I (intolerantly) thought you were stupid and wrong? Apparently not. Maybe that's why you're getting some bad press for using the same tactic.

As for the other stuff, if you don't see why attacking another person and then being surprised when you're attacked back, I don't know what to tell you. Good luck with that life philosophy.
I getting a little discouraged here, Foreman. I could say, let's agree to disagree, but then we would have to at least understand what we disagree about. Should I say, let's agree to not understand one another? I'm not saying you are stupid and wrong when I say that. It's my frustration with not being able to explain myself.

You explained your statement in a couple of ways, but I understood the meaning in exactly the same way. That is not the problem here. Let me try again. If I were the person you describe, a person who writes posts that sound like anyone who thinks differently is stupid and wrong, then I would be wrong, won't I? I'm not always right. Other people are right and I am wrong. So if I thought that all those who disagreed with me were stupid and wrong, I would be wrong. I don't think there is any question about that. Everyone knows that. So, everyone would know I was wrong. Also, I would be stupid. It would be stupid of me to think that just because a person has a different opinion he must be stupid. I've known a lot of really smart people who disagreed with me. Professors, with a liberal leaning, are probably in the majority of professors. Only a stupid person would claim that all these professors are stupid. They wouldn't have gotten to the position they are in if they weren't smart. I have a smart brother who disagrees with me. Obviously a lot of very smart people, some of them smarter than me, disagree with me. I'd be stupid not to acknowledge it and have it engrained in my brain.

So, if you think my posts reflect the idea "that anyone who thinks differently is stupid and wrong, not just of a different opinion," then I must be stupid and wrong in your opinion. Because only a very stupid and mistaken individual could possibly have such an attitude. Do you see that I'm not saying that you directly call me stupid and wrong, but it is implicit in the characterization you have given of me?

No, nobody likes being thought stupid and wrong. And evidently you still think I am stupid and wrong because you still think I have an attitude that only a stupid and very wrong person would have.

I don't know if you think "attacking" and "criticizing" a person are two different things. I think we need to be free to criticize people without being censured for it, if the criticism is fair, reasonable, sincere, and well-intentioned. When in doubt, give the person the benefit of the doubt. Now, I should be free to criticize the president of the United States for expanding abortion rights. I suppose you might agree with me in my criticism, but suppose you didn't. Should I expect to be attacked or criticized for making my criticism? Perhaps so. But is it fair to call me a racist, homophobe, ignorant, unpatriotic fool for criticizing the president about abortion? I'm not saying anyone called me those names, I'm just trying to make an example. Can you see a difference in my respectful, polite "attack" on the President, and the response of being personally attacked on unrelated grounds because I voiced the criticism?
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Post by bismark »

vorpal blade wrote: So, if you think my posts reflect the idea "that anyone who thinks differently is stupid and wrong, not just of a different opinion," then I must be stupid and wrong in your opinion. Because only a very stupid and mistaken individual could possibly have such an attitude. Do you see that I'm not saying that you directly call me stupid and wrong, but it is implicit in the characterization you have given of me?

No, nobody likes being thought stupid and wrong. And evidently you still think I am stupid and wrong because you still think I have an attitude that only a stupid and very wrong person would have.
vorpal blade, if you don't want to be thought of as stupid and wrong, then don't say things that make you sound like you are stupid and wrong. simple as that.
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Post by vorpal blade »

bismark wrote:vorpal,

reading through that i would think that most democrats would say they hold basically all of the same principles (aside from some variations on the role of government part). its just how the republican party has been acting on these principles that many take issue with. off the top of my head, ways the republican party is different than gospel teachings:

-stance on abortion
-stance on rights for homosexual couples
-stance on torture of enemy combatants
-stance on preemptive wars
-stance on corporate welfare
-stance on immigration

(i expect the inevitable question of how the republicans stances on these issues differ from gospel teachings, but its late so feel free to answer it for me anyone)

not surprisingly this same list could be made for democrats (either because their stance is essentially the same or because its on the opposite end of the spectrum). so i think dr. smeeds point (which i think you are intentionally being obtuse about but perhaps not since this is the internet and its hard to judge intent) is that neither political party aligns perfectly with the gospel (and both differ greatly in many ways). if either party aligned perfectly with the gospel, living prophets would certainly recommend it to us.

pro tip: if you want your remarks that could be seen as condescending to come off as a joke, either use them more often and be more over the top so people know you can't be serious, or use the ever useful "</sarcasm>" tags.
Bismark,

The Republican leaders have not always acted consistent with Party principles, but that doesn’t mean the principles “are incredibly far removed from the teachings of Christ.” If we compared the principles of the Republican Party to the behavior of many Christians we might conclude that the Republican Party principles are “ incredibly superior to the teachings of Christ.” The way the Republican Party has been acting isn’t a fair representation of the principles.

I agree with you that the Republican principles in the website I referenced could probably be agreed to by most Democrats. I think this goes along with what NerdGirl rightly pointed out. We have similar goals, it is just how to achieve those goals.

I really thought Dr. Smeed was referring to principles such as “selfishness” and “compassion” when he claimed that the Republican Party principles were far removed from the teachings of Christ. To me, things like “stance on abortion,” are not principles. So, we have a difference of opinion on what Dr. Smeed meant. You may remember that I asked him, because I honestly wanted to know what he meant, so I wouldn’t take him out of context or misrepresent his views. He refused to answer me. Instead, he challenged me to write the answers for him. [joke] So, obviously, I have official approval to interpret him anyway I like, and I reject your interpretation. [/joke]

I disagree with your view that if a party were perfectly aligned with the gospel that prophets would recommend it to us. The Church wouldn’t want to tell the members which party they should be in. That would probably make the Church lose its tax exempt status. It would also take away our agency. It should be up to us to study out the issues and decide what is right, unless it is clearly a moral issue. Most political issues don’t have a clear moral direction. The same problem might be solved in a number of ways and there is no single right answer. You could have two political parties, with greatly different viewpoints, and both could be 100 percent aligned with the gospel.

To state the obvious, a political party is not a person, so we can’t easily identify what the party believes. Different individuals believe different things. If I were a Republican I would tend to take all my gospel principles and say they were Republican principles, though some in the party would disagree with me.

To be a little more objective I think we can go to the Republican Party Platform and say that this is what the Republican Party more or less believes, but doesn’t always practice. It gets a little sticky here, as to whether this is really what most Republicans believe, or it is just PR. I think if you want to argue that the Republican Party doesn’t believe its platform then the burden of proof is on you.

So, what does the Republican Party Platform for 2008 say about the issues you have identified as being far removed from gospel teachings? Here is what the platform says about the first issue you mentioned, abortion. I’m not saying it is identical to gospel teachings, but I don’t see where it is in conflict.
Republican Party Platform wrote:We assert the rights of families in all international programs and will not fund organizations involved in abortion. We strongly support the long-held policy of the Republican Party known as the .Mexico City policy,.which prohibits federal monies from being given to non-governmental organizations that provide abortions or actively promote abortion as a method of family planning in other countries. We reject any treaty or agreement that would violate those values. That includes the UN convention on women.s rights,
signed in the last months of the Carter Administration, and the UN convention on the rights of the child.

We lament that judges have denied the people their right to set abortion policies in the states and are undermining traditional marriage
laws from coast to coast.

Because the family is our basic unit of society, we fully support parental rights to consent to medical treatment for their children including mental health treatment, drug treatment, alcohol treatment, and treatment involving pregnancy, contraceptives and abortion.

We oppose school-based clinics that provide referrals, counseling, and related services for abortion and contraception.

Faithful to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence, we assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment.s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity and dignity of innocent human life.

We have made progress. The Supreme Court has upheld prohibitions against the barbaric practice of partial-birth abortion. States are now permitted to extend health-care coverage to children before birth. And the Born Alive Infants Protection Act has become law; this law ensures that infants who are born alive during an abortion receive all treatment and care that is provided to all newborn infants and
are not neglected and left to die. We must protect girls from exploitation and statutory rape through a parental notification requirement. We all have a moral obligation to assist, not to penalize, women struggling with the challenges of an unplanned pregnancy. At its core, abortion is a fundamental assault on the sanctity of innocent human life. Women deserve better than abortion. Every effort should be made to work with women considering abortion to enable and empower them to choose life. We salute those who provide them alternatives, including pregnancy care centers, and we take pride in the tremendous increase in adoptions that has followed Republican legislative initiatives.
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vorpal blade
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Post by vorpal blade »

bismark wrote:
vorpal blade wrote: So, if you think my posts reflect the idea "that anyone who thinks differently is stupid and wrong, not just of a different opinion," then I must be stupid and wrong in your opinion. Because only a very stupid and mistaken individual could possibly have such an attitude. Do you see that I'm not saying that you directly call me stupid and wrong, but it is implicit in the characterization you have given of me?

No, nobody likes being thought stupid and wrong. And evidently you still think I am stupid and wrong because you still think I have an attitude that only a stupid and very wrong person would have.
vorpal blade, if you don't want to be thought of as stupid and wrong, then don't say things that make you sound like you are stupid and wrong. simple as that.
[joke]*sigh*[/joke] “Every man of genius sees the world at a different angle from his fellows, and there is his tragedy.” Henry Havelock Ellis
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Post by Waldorf and Sauron »

Vorpal Blade,

I think the Republican Platform is a lot closer to the republican party's principles than the fluffy PR "why am I a Republican" thing you linked to earlier, so good job on finding a better source. However, I think we can agree that someone's enumerated principles aren't necessarily their motivating principles. For example, someone can SAY they live by the principles of the LDS church, but yet shoplift—one person might say that that person simply isn't being true to their principles, but I say they were never their principles in the first place. I think it's probably more helpful to talk about the actions and votings of the republican party than their "principles" unless we can come to a consensus of what we mean by "principles".

The one problem I saw in the republican party in the presidential election (and I was a registered Republican up until this election) was the way they supported McCain who was, from what I saw, rather dishonest when it came to representing his opponent's position. I cannot stand for that. By the way, Obama was just as bad, so I voted for Mitt Romney—not because I'm ultra-conservative, but because I felt he was honest and I'd rather throw away my vote than vote for a liar. I see this as a flawed trait of the republican party: the willingness to support a candidate to the point that you're willing to throw rational honesty out the window. Now I am not saying that this is true of every Republican—far from it, I think it's mainly a little-recognized problem with the party's political strategists and marketers—but I'd like to see the party emphasize fact-checking and reduce spin. I'd like to see it from the Democrats, too.

Regarding abortion, the republican platform makes no exceptions for the mother's health or incest or abortion, which does conflict with the Church's teachings. I don't personally find that INCREDIBLY far removed from the teachings of the church, but it is different. Anyway, I'd rather vote radically "pro-life" than lean an inch "pro-choice."

And here's my take on Rush's divisiveness; a little bit simplistic and under-informed since I haven't really listened to him in years. Several years ago, I heard a speech from Rush on the radio about how our goals are basically the same whether we are Democrat or Republican, but the methods of going about it are so different and incompatible that we MUST NOT compromise. It seems like Rush still holds to this philosophy. The problem as I see it is that our republic was founded on the idea of representatives from different background and philosophies coming together to do just that—to compromise, and to do that, nobody can ever get everything they want completely. You have got to compromise, and it seems to me that Rush does more vilification of his opponents than he attempts to find common ground and work together. Now, I don't think Rush is even close to the worst pundit when it comes to vilifying liberals, but he's not exactly the Great Compromiser.

That's my opinion, but if you disagree with what I've said about Rush, I'd be glad to hear about it.

-Sauron
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Post by A Mom, but not yours »

I know this is an old debate, but I'd like to throw in my two cents on Rush. I was actually, serendipitously, listening to his "I hope Obama fails" speech when he made it. (I've listened to his show probably less than a half dozen times in my life, and then never the whole thing.) What he said really wasn't that much more divisive than a lot of other political pundits, but I, for one, believe that he purposely chose words that he knew would be divisive and call attention to his speech. I think it's a publicity thing. And if it was, it certainly worked.
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Post by vorpal blade »

Sauron,

Thank you for your interesting comments. I would like to respond to all of them, but I only have time for one or two subjects today. I plan on writing more later.

If your point is that the Republican Party is wrong on some issues, you’ll get no argument from me. In fact, I think everyone in the world has pretty much decided that the Republican Party is wrong on a lot of things. The more conservative elements of the party feel that the party has abandoned its core principles and needs to return to them. Some moderate elements feel that the conservative wing has too much influence, and wants to make the party more popular or “respond to changing times.” The other political parties of course think the Republicans are just wrong on many things.

In my experience Christians who are members of the Republican Party try very hard to make the party principles consistent with the teachings of Jesus. Christians may disagree with how to implement those principles, and there may be some minor differences of opinion on what those principles should be, but they are very sincere in this.

Typically the rhetoric I hear from non-Republicans is that Republican principles are inherently flawed. They feel that Republicans believe in a Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest, and the devil take the hind most. They feel that fundamentally Republicans don’t care about the environment or anyone else. They think that Republican principles are founded on motivations of greed and self-interest.

So, if your point was that Republicans are not trying to follow Jesus, or the party is based on corrupt principles, then I would think that Republicans should feel unjustly insulted. But if you believe that in the process of compromise and give and take that is inherent in forming a political party not led by prophets, Jesus Christ might not be completely satisfied with the resulting party, we would agree.

I can understand your belief that the Republican Party platform in regard to abortion is not exactly consistent with the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The platform does not specifically state that rape, incest, and the life of a mother are exceptions to their opposition to abortion. The platform does not say these are or these are not exceptions. It is silent on the matter. In looking around I find that sources dominated by Democrats (most mainstream media) will tell you that the platform means that Republicans take a hard-line on abortion and admit no exceptions. Some will go even further and assure you that Republicans would make every instance of abortion illegal. That is not the feeling I get from reading sources favorable to Republicans.

I agree that phrases like “the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed,” sound rather absolute. As I understand it this phrase has been in the party platform for more than thirty years. But is it so cut and dry? Do the writers of the platform just see things in black and white?

Consider another phrase in the document, “Every effort should be made to work with women considering abortion to enable and empower them to choose life.” To me, and lots of other people, this means that making abortion illegal in all cases is not the Republican platform. It is more subtle than that.

In my not-always-so-humble opinion the wording of the platform is a concession to elements within the party who want a strong, clear message about abortion. The great majority of Republicans do want some exceptions in the case of rape, incest and the life of the mother. So, as a compromise with the most conservative people, the language is somewhat absolute sounding.

Now, is it wrong to state things this emphatically? Well, in my opinion, the scriptures often seem emphatic, absolute, and black and white: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal, neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.” (D&C 59:6) The scriptures don’t make the exceptions such as, “except when the life of the mother is in jeopardy.” That comes from inspired leaders, who I believe are right.

Many of the pro-life supporters in the Republican Party have been raised as Bible believing Christians. To them it is perfectly normal to have principles laid out absolutely, such as thou shall not kill, knowing that there are “exceptions.” The Lord approved of capital punishment. The Lord approved of sending Israel off to war to kill their enemies. But the Lord didn’t see fit to explain every exception when he gave the general principle. Neither do these Christians see fit to give every exception when they try to draft a set of principles to guide the Republican Party.

Now, if the Republican Party had explicitly stated, “except in cases of rape, incest, or the life of the mother,” would you have been satisfied that the Republican Party platform on abortion was 100% consistent with the teachings of Jesus? I would not. Let me explain.
As you know, this is a statement of what we believe:
Gospel Topics:Abortion wrote:In today's society, abortion has become a common practice, defended by deceptive arguments. Latter-day prophets have denounced abortion, referring to the Lord's declaration, "Thou shalt not . . . kill, nor do anything like unto it" (D&C 59:6). Their counsel on the matter is clear: Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must not submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for an abortion. Church members who encourage an abortion in any way may be subject to Church discipline.

Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.
The Church does not say that every case of pregnancy resulting from rape means the mother is morally justified in having an abortion. It is not an automatic justification of abortion. Only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer are they justified. Now, how can you state that in a political platform where most of the people don’t have local LDS Church leaders?

If you put in the exceptions your language justifies some abortions; some of which may be morally right, and some of which are morally wrong. Wouldn’t it be contrary to the teachings of Jesus to justify abortions which are morally wrong? I think the result, in a non-denominational political party, would be even further from the teachings of Jesus than without the exceptions. As you say, “Anyway, I'd rather vote radically "pro-life" than lean an inch ‘pro-choice.’”

I think a document like the Party platform is meant to give guidance and summarize a consensus of how the Party should approach an issue. It is not a detailed handbook on how to write new legislation. It is understood that in the political process there will be compromise and give and take. But the platform provides a philosophical point of principles to begin negotiations.

My conclusion is that the Republican Party platform in regard to abortion, as currently worded, is what Jesus Christ would inspire to be written in such a document.
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Post by vorpal blade »

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:Vorpal Blade,

The one problem I saw in the republican party in the presidential election (and I was a registered Republican up until this election) was the way they supported McCain who was, from what I saw, rather dishonest when it came to representing his opponent's position. I cannot stand for that. By the way, Obama was just as bad, so I voted for Mitt Romney—not because I'm ultra-conservative, but because I felt he was honest and I'd rather throw away my vote than vote for a liar. I see this as a flawed trait of the republican party: the willingness to support a candidate to the point that you're willing to throw rational honesty out the window. Now I am not saying that this is true of every Republican—far from it, I think it's mainly a little-recognized problem with the party's political strategists and marketers—but I'd like to see the party emphasize fact-checking and reduce spin. I'd like to see it from the Democrats, too.
I’m not aware of any dishonest misrepresentation on the part of McCain. I didn’t agree with McCain on a number of issues, and neither did Rush. I also disagreed with Mitt Romney. But I think McCain, Rush, and Romney are honest. If you are referring to a representation of Barack Obama as a Socialist, I think the representation is correct. I think Obama misrepresented his own position in order to get elected. He portrayed himself as less likely to raise taxes than McCain, and taking a middle of the road approach with regard to abortion. So, I don’t see it as a trait of the Republican Party to throw honesty out the window in support of any candidate. Like you I’m all in favor of honesty, fact-checking, and reduced spin. Perhaps we just have a difference of opinion on McCain’s opponents, or quite possibly that I never heard the bad stuff.

There is a tendency in either party to support the candidate who has been chosen by the party, even if you don’t agree with the candidate on every issue. As you say, you have to compromise, and nobody can ever get everything they want completely. What are we supposed to do when the candidate we want has no chance of getting elected? My strategy is to vote for the candidate who most closely matches my beliefs, and has at least a chance of wining. So I voted for McCain, despite his flaws. I didn’t see that it was going to do any good to vote for Romney, who had pulled out of the race months before. That’s just my view, anyway.
Sauron wrote:And here's my take on Rush's divisiveness; a little bit simplistic and under-informed since I haven't really listened to him in years. Several years ago, I heard a speech from Rush on the radio about how our goals are basically the same whether we are Democrat or Republican, but the methods of going about it are so different and incompatible that we MUST NOT compromise. It seems like Rush still holds to this philosophy. The problem as I see it is that our republic was founded on the idea of representatives from different background and philosophies coming together to do just that—to compromise, and to do that, nobody can ever get everything they want completely. You have got to compromise, and it seems to me that Rush does more vilification of his opponents than he attempts to find common ground and work together. Now, I don't think Rush is even close to the worst pundit when it comes to vilifying liberals, but he's not exactly the Great Compromiser.

That's my opinion, but if you disagree with what I've said about Rush, I'd be glad to hear about it.

-Sauron
In regard to Rush, he believes there is a time to compromise, and a time to refrain from compromising. Rush didn’t want McCain, but he couldn’t get Romney, so he compromised. Rush is willing to compromise when it is a true compromise, and not a partial capitulation of your core beliefs and values. What you say sounds good, but the devil is in the details.

Let’s suppose you believe in small government, and you believe that no one should be taxed more than 10% of his income. Let’s say that the tax rate is 30%. Your opponents want to increase the tax rate to 36%. Should you compromise and agree on a tax rate of 33%? In the spirit of non-partisanship, getting along, finding common ground, working together, and trying to accomplish something? Why isn’t it ever in the cards to compromise and reduce the tax rate to 20%? In a situation like this, Rush would say we MUST NOT compromise, because that only means giving in and losing what you stand for. Nevertheless, Republicans give in time after time.

Perhaps the Democrats will throw in some pork which benefits a particular Republican Congressman in exchange for his support for the higher tax. Is this legitimate compromise, or should we say we MUST NOT compromise?

It may not be higher taxes, but an increase in some burdensome federal regulations. It might be a loss of liberty for some group. Bit by bit the opposition takes away by way of compromise with a net loss to the conservatives.

Rush doesn’t always say that Democratic and Republican goals are basically the same. He frequently says that in many government programs the goal of liberal Democrats is to develop a class of perpetually needy people who will continue to re-elect Democrats in exchange for continuously enlarging the government handouts. And, I admit, that is the way it looks like to me as well. The conservative solution to the problem may be simply to get the government out of the way, but that seldom seems to be even on the table for discussion. So, what is the point of compromising in establishing such programs? Should a true conservative compromise his principles and merely slow down the growth of the welfare state, or should he say, we MUST NOT compromise when it comes to the destruction of self-reliance in our people?
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Post by vorpal blade »

A Mom, but not yours wrote:I know this is an old debate, but I'd like to throw in my two cents on Rush. I was actually, serendipitously, listening to his "I hope Obama fails" speech when he made it. (I've listened to his show probably less than a half dozen times in my life, and then never the whole thing.) What he said really wasn't that much more divisive than a lot of other political pundits, but I, for one, believe that he purposely chose words that he knew would be divisive and call attention to his speech. I think it's a publicity thing. And if it was, it certainly worked.
Dear Mom,

I think your assessment is fair.

From what you've heard Rush say, would you agree or disagree ith the author of these statements: "Never have I felt so much evil coming from one voice over the radio. He does spew hate and you're wrong if you deny it."

I'm hearing that you would disagree.
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Post by Waldorf and Sauron »

Here's one lie I noted directly after one of the debates. I noticed many during the campaign, but I wrote this in an email during the campaign:
Here's a recent McCain lie from the debate:
McCain: Now, my old buddy, Joe, Joe the plumber, is out there. Now, Joe, Sen. Obama's plan, if you're a small business and . . . you've got employees, and you've got kids, if you don't get – adopt the health care plan that Sen. Obama mandates, he's going to fine you . . . I don't think that Joe right now wants to pay a fine when he is seeing such difficult times in America's economy.

But here's the plan he's referring to says about the fine:

EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION. Large employers that do not offer meaningful coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement.
I don't have time to respond to everything you've said immediately, but I wanted to point out that my claim that McCain misrepresented Obama's position is valid. Now, I suppose the case could be made that this is an honest mistake made on McCain's part, so if you like, I can dig up more examples that I think were deliberate.

And I guess I find honesty one of those "no compromise" issues.
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Post by A Mom, but not yours »

Evil and hate? Eh, not so much. Strong opinions with no punches pulled? Definitely.

Side note: Do I agree with those opinions? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.
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Post by vorpal blade »

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:Here's one lie I noted directly after one of the debates. I noticed many during the campaign, but I wrote this in an email during the campaign:
Here's a recent McCain lie from the debate:
McCain: Now, my old buddy, Joe, Joe the plumber, is out there. Now, Joe, Sen. Obama's plan, if you're a small business and . . . you've got employees, and you've got kids, if you don't get – adopt the health care plan that Sen. Obama mandates, he's going to fine you . . . I don't think that Joe right now wants to pay a fine when he is seeing such difficult times in America's economy.

But here's the plan he's referring to says about the fine:

EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION. Large employers that do not offer meaningful coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement.
I don't have time to respond to everything you've said immediately, but I wanted to point out that my claim that McCain misrepresented Obama's position is valid. Now, I suppose the case could be made that this is an honest mistake made on McCain's part, so if you like, I can dig up more examples that I think were deliberate.

And I guess I find honesty one of those "no compromise" issues.
Sauron,

I responded to this post last night, and I saw that it posted, but this morning my post is missing. I’ll try again.

When Joe the plumber had his famous conversation with Obama, Joe said that he wanted to buy a business making $250,000 to $280,000, and Obama indicated that yes Joe would have to share the wealth with other Americans. From this the conclusion was reached among Republicans that a business making more than $250,000 would not be exempt from Obama’s requirements and plans.

I think McCain thought that under Obama’s plan the business Joe the plumber wanted to buy would be considered a large business, because the business would have 2 or 3 employees and make more than $250,000 a year. At the time Obama frequently referred to the $250,000 figure as his line of demarcation in income. So, when McCain said that Joe the plumber would be fined by Obama’s plan, McCain was sincere. It isn’t clear to me, even now, that McCain was incorrect, because Obama’s plan never defines what a small business is.

So, when McCain referred to Joe the plumber’s small business, he was using the term “small” in the way Republicans understand the word. This may have been a tactical error, because it allowed Obama to pounce on the use of the word. In Obama’s plan “small” businesses are specifically exempt from the requirement, so technically Obama is correct, if we concentrate on the word “small” and ignore the part about whether Joe the plumber’s business is small or not. You could argue that it is Obama that is misrepresenting his plan.
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vorpal blade
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Post by vorpal blade »

A Mom, but not yours wrote:Evil and hate? Eh, not so much. Strong opinions with no punches pulled? Definitely.

Side note: Do I agree with those opinions? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.
Thanks, Mom.

A son, but not yours.
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vorpal blade
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A Mom, but not yours wrote:... but I'd like to throw in my two cents on Rush. I was actually, serendipitously, listening to his "I hope Obama fails" speech when he made it.
You might think this is funny. The first half dozen times I read your post I read it as "I was actually, surreptitiously, listening...." I gather that some people think there is something wrong with you if you listen to Rush.
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Post by Waldorf and Sauron »

Vorpal Blade, "Small Business" is a legally defined term; Obama doesn't have to—and shouldn't—define it himself.

See http://www.sba.gov/contractingopportuni ... DARDS.html

There is no difference in the usage of the term "small business" between Republicans and Democrats any more than there is a difference in the term "minor" meaning a child.

The $250,000 income level was specifically talking about a tax bracket. It's faulty to assume that this line would also apply to other elements of Obama's plan, including his health care proposals.
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vorpal blade
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Post by vorpal blade »

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:Vorpal Blade, "Small Business" is a legally defined term; Obama doesn't have to—and shouldn't—define it himself.

See http://www.sba.gov/contractingopportuni ... DARDS.html

There is no difference in the usage of the term "small business" between Republicans and Democrats any more than there is a difference in the term "minor" meaning a child.

The $250,000 income level was specifically talking about a tax bracket. It's faulty to assume that this line would also apply to other elements of Obama's plan, including his health care proposals.
I'll come back and address this another day, if you would like. In the meantime, have a nice birthday.
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