Weight loss: #59609

[ahem.]

The question about losing weight that they discussed in the podcast bugged me a little bit.

Mostly I disliked it because I feel Hypatia fell prey to one of the major pitfalls I think writers face: ignoring the the reader and the actual intention behind the question in order to lecture/rant to/inform the readers-at-large about something they might know a little about.

Right in the body of the question, Espionage says "I'm not an expert on weight loss, but I know a LOT about it because I've tried to stay informed about everything so I don't screw up my body." She is not really looking for healthy weight loss guidelines; she already knows most of those. I feel what she's really looking for are motivation boosters to help her stick with it when she feels frustrated with lack of visible results.

So it kind of bugged me that Hypatia spent 90% of her response telling Espionage to not bother with crash diets and that she needs to incorporate exercise into her weight loss regimen. Honestly, my first reaction was "...Well, duh." Those are the first things anyone learns when you read anything about healthy weight loss.

I feel like the only truly useful suggestion she had was the personal trainer thing. Two sentences. The rest was just fluff disguised as useful advice. I'm not saying it wasn't good advice. Just that it wasn't useful to the question-asker.

Sometimes I wish the writers would try to respect their readers a little bit more. I know it's hard addressing big issues in such a structured Q&A format without a chance to ask follow up questions. But I would appreciate being given the benefit of the doubt sometimes. I've asked a lot of questions over the years where the writer answering my questions seems to be talking down to me. I can handle a little bit of snark and mocking, but I'm not stupid.

So writers, please stop trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator in your responses and instead listen to the needs of the person asking the question. They're the one you have the most potential to help, as they are the one listening the hardest.

[Commander Keen]

Read the question again. "Any jump start ideas? Anyone suffered from the same fate?" THOSE are the questions the questioner asked. Thus, those are the ones we responded to. They did indeed say that they were losing motivation, but not only do I feel that we provided an answer for that ("It takes time! Go easy on yourself!"), but that wasn't the question that was asked, so we responded to those that were. I'll break it down for you.

Question: "Anyone suffer from the same fate?"
- Hypatia AND myself both said that it takes a while to lose weight, providing personal examples from when we were both above our optimum weight. Thus, if the questioner has only been going for a couple months, they should have a little more patience - it takes time!

Question: "Any jump start ideas?"
Our Answers (points summarized):
- There isn't really such a thing as "jump start" ideas in dieting/losing weight. Other points that follow assume this.
- Anything that IS thought of as such can usually be considered a crash diet.
- Muscle weighs more than fat, so you may initially see weight gains when you start working out because you're producing more muscle, which will in the long run
- It takes time to lose weight (1-2 lbs a week at the most is healthy)
- This is a significant amount of weight, and a doctor should be consulted for optimal results.
- Overwhelming yourself at first will discourage you, so take it slow and gradually make changes.
- Hire a personal trainer or a friend to help you with an exercise regimen.
- While there aren't many jump start ideas, here are a few ideas with how to best proceed in diet/exercise:
- 'Three S' rule.
- Don't be afraid to enjoy snacks in moderation! You may end up binging on those foods if you try to avoid them altogether.
- A small bit of dark chocolate can help curb sugar cravings.

So, kindly calm down. You do realize that you're putting many words into the mouth of the questioner, right? Unless you are her, half the stuff you've said is conjecture. The intent is something about motivation, instead of the questions she actually posed? Sounds like your words, not theirs.

Sorry for the somewhat snarky response, but sometimes I get frustrated when readers criticize us like this, especially when it seems so baseless. If you think you'd be that much better than us at answering questions, (re)apply to be a writer and show us up. Goodness knows we need more writers right now.

[ahem.]

I think you are referencing some things from the podcast, which I admittedly didn't really listen to.

So, kindly calm down. You do realize that you're putting many words into the mouth of the questioner, right? Unless you are her, half the stuff you've said is conjecture.

You do perhaps have a point. I am probably projecting my own opinions in there a little bit. Maybe she did just want general support and sympathy. But as the concerns of the asker were ones that I share, I was excited to read the response. I was disappointed that it seemed to be just generic "hang in theres" instead of anything more substantial.

If you think you'd be that much better than us at answering questions, (re)apply to be a writer and show us up.

Ha! Been there, done that. I was a terrible writer, and would never try to subject the Board's readership to myself again. I can't do it better than you, I never said I could. But writers tend to be very sensitive to criticism and I've never really understood why.

I'm giving you my viewpoint. Another data point on what your readers want. If I'm an outlier, continue with what you're doing. People love the Board, and there is a reason for that. But think of me as an editorial from the DU. I could be completely crazy, and if so, tons of people will write in to contradict me and be outraged that I would dare besmirch the mighty Board. Or I could be a valid minority opinion; most people disagree with me, but can see where I'm coming from. Or I could be the silent majority sending up a flag of concern over observed trends.

I like the snark of the Board. I do not think you are being especially "aloof or holier-than-thou" in your responses. But I do think you guys could stand to "kindly calm down" yourself when somebody offers you something other than unadulterated praise.

[Commander Keen]

I think you are referencing some things from the podcast, which I admittedly didn't really listen to.

Seriously? When you reference that it was in the podcast, I assumed you didn't like the responses that were in the podcast. If that's the case, then you should probably listen to it before criticizing. If not, why mention the 'cast at all?

You do perhaps have a point. I am probably projecting my own opinions in there a little bit. Maybe she did just want general support and sympathy. But as the concerns of the asker were ones that I share, I was excited to read the response. I was disappointed that it seemed to be just generic "hang in theres" instead of anything more substantial.

What else are we supposed to tell them? Again, I emphasize that we answered the questions they actually asked, not the supposedly hidden ones that they didn't. Just because something failed to meet your expectations doesn't mean that it was wrong or lacking. Heck, if you have a similar question, ask it, but just be blunt about what you're wanting! I'm more than willing to give the readers what they want, but they need to ask for it. It's "Your questions, our answers," not "Your questions, which may or may not contain undertones that are possibly undetectable, our answers which may or may not pick up on your subtle undertones of questions that you were maybe possibly trying to ask."

Additionally, when trying to lose weight, there isn't a ton of motivation you can give except for hey, you can do it, it takes time, and keep going. That's all that I gave myself, and yes it was hard, but there's not much else to say. If you're going through the same thing, it's hard, yeah, but there's not much else to it so long as you're going about it the right way.

And I'm not adverse to criticism, nor do I think that we writers are creatures which survive solely on "unadulterated praise" (though remember, YOU were a writer as well!). Heck, I hardly come around the reader forums anymore (another writer linked me here). I don't need the validation. I'm not looking for praise or anything. But if you really want your criticism to be taken seriously, it needs to be based in something substantial, not just the fact that we didn't answer the part of a question that, again, wasn't actually asked, in a podcast that you have admittedly not listened to.

[Hypatia]

All I'm going to say is that someone that grossly overweight does not "know a lot about weight loss." I've worked with many overweight people and have been shocked time and again at their lack of knowledge about basic nutrition and fitness. [snarky snarky snark to ahem.] I answered the question well; if you feel that the overall writing abilities on the Board could benefit from more of your criticism, I suggest you reapply.

[a writer]

I think this is what ahem. was actually talking about in the thread opener, whether all of her criticism was super-valid or not or whether I think the answer on the podcast (which I did listen to) was as bad as she thought or not. There is often this holier-than-thou attitude on the Board.

Because, Hypatia, the fact is that you can't know that that person doesn't know a lot about weight loss. There are a lot of paths to getting to that weight and who knows what that person's circumstances are. Taking the stance that you absolutely know that that person knows nothing about weight loss when they state that they do is invalidating and offensive.

[Hypatia]

Why am I the one getting all the backlash? CK and Cognoscente both weighed in on the question. In fact, Cognoscente actually called the girl fat. How's that for invalidating?

[a writer]

I'm not talking about anything on the podcast. I didn't share ahem.'s reaction to the podcast, so I wasn't going to comment on this thread until I read that comment of yours. You cannot know for certain what that person's circumstances are and so that kind of a response is uncalled for. I simply think this kind of an attitude is far too prevalent on the Board.

[mic0]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that if the original question asker knew as much about weight loss as she said (and I believe she probably has done a lot of research and knows quite a lot), then there wasn't much the writers could say that she didn't already know. Whether or not that was handled the "right" way is something else.

[Foreman]

Oh, good...I thought we were overdue for some pointless drama on the Board. I'm glad we're back in top form!

And this time, with a passive-aggressive maybe-an-actual-writer, who chooses to criticize in public rather than discussing personally or in our own writer forum, which is an excellent place to raise concerns BEFORE they become a big deal! The tension!

Good show, crowd. Good show.

[not a writer]

Oh, good...I thought we were overdue for some pointless drama on the Board. I'm glad we're back in top form!

And this time, with a passive-aggressive maybe-an-actual-writer, who chooses to criticize in public rather than discussing personally or in our own writer forum, which is an excellent place to raise concerns BEFORE they become a big deal! The tension!

Good show, crowd. Good show.

Again, this is just another indicator of the "holier-than-thou" attitude of many Board writers. Coming here and mocking the people who criticize them (justly, in my opinion)... good show, crowd. Good show. Maybe "a writer" came here so that werf could feel some support, rather than the unjustified criticism and dogma that the powers that be certainly would give?

[Foreman]

Oh, good...I thought we were overdue for some pointless drama on the Board. I'm glad we're back in top form!

And this time, with a passive-aggressive maybe-an-actual-writer, who chooses to criticize in public rather than discussing personally or in our own writer forum, which is an excellent place to raise concerns BEFORE they become a big deal! The tension!

Good show, crowd. Good show.

Again, this is just another indicator of the "holier-than-thou" attitude of many Board writers. Coming here and mocking the people who criticize them (justly, in my opinion)... good show, crowd. Good show. Maybe "a writer" came here so that werf could feel some support, rather than the unjustified criticism and dogma that the powers that be certainly would give?

Oh my goodness...you actually made it worse. I'm amazed that could even happen.

I would mock whether I was a writer or not, because (writers or not) the Board and the people who associate with it have a tendency to get excited about rather minor things. For the record (being someone not in power on the board), I've always personally seen criticism and suggestions from anyone seriously discussed rather than belittled and dismissed. Sounds like you have no idea what goes on, and thus probably shouldn't make unfounded assumptions.

[ahem.]

But if you really want your criticism to be taken seriously, it needs to be based in something substantial

Ugh. Do we really want to go there? I mean, I do feel like I have some valid criticisms, but I'm slightly hesitant to post them as it will prolly just hurt more feelings and change the debate to something different than I wanted it to be. Mostly a TL;DR laundry list of specific criticisms instead of a healthy discussion of the principles behind this specific instance.

But... I did just spend a little while typing them up, so I'm going to indulge myself against my better judgment. Please don't hate me.



Espionage starts off by stating her most basic concern: she is unable to lose weight. Despite adhering to some sort of consistent regimen for almost two months, she finds her weight has not decreased, and may have actually increased at times. By putting this explanation first, she establishes that this is what she wants to talk about. The rest is just putting it in context.

When Hypatia addresses this concern, she does it in a very round about way. She emphasizes that weight loss takes time and patience and cautions Espionage to not expect big results right off the bat. While on the surface this seems like a supportive thing to say, she later goes on to say 1-2 pounds a week would be a reasonable rate for weight loss. But... Espionage has already been going to several weeks. With a conservative estimate of 1.5 pounds per week for six weeks, she could have reasonably lost almost 10 pounds. That is measurable success, and if Espionage had been seeing this level of success, I'm sure she would have mentioned it. Clearly she is either doing something wrong, or has underlying health issues she needs to address.

So it comes back to the fact that she is asking for suggestions on how she can lose wight. You ask, “What else are we supposed to tell them?” Well, you could have started by addressing her specific situation. As someone who has struggled with weight loss and dieting in the past, Espionage does not need to be read the riot act about burning more calories than she consumes. That is Weight Loss 101. Why not give a few tips about adjusting her routine in ways that might not seem obvious? Or explaining why, even with an altered diet and increased exercise, she might be holding steady or even gaining weight?

“If someone is working out and not losing weight, or not losing as much as they want—or if they’re actually gaining weight—the first place to look is the type and amount of exercise. Cardio exercise burns more calories than muscle-toning or the average resistance-training workout. So try dialing down the stretching and core work to just once or twice a week, and replacing it with more cardio. That should produce more weight loss. And the more minutes the better when it comes to weight loss: An hour to 90 minutes of aerobic activity per day on most days of the week will affect body weight.”

Or how about telling her that the numbers may not be the best measure for gauging her results?

“Some people get overly obsessed about numbers on the scale. If you are happy with the way your new regimen is making you feel, and you feel like you are improving your fitness and strength, then continue doing what you are doing without worrying too much about the numbers. Exercise works, and every minute of movement helps your health in some way. Weight loss through working out may be slower than you want, but it’s likely to be longer term solution and a healthier way to trim down and shape up, or at the very least to stave off weight gain over the years.”

While the support and personal experiences are nice in that they give hope and encouragement to keep at it... I don't feel that they are really what Espionage was asking for. I admitted earlier that my interpretation may be colored by my own bias, but I do think I have at least a little bit of a point.

Hypatia, despite my analysis here, I'm not saying your answer was bad. And CK, I'm not saying you need to develop psychic powers to interpret the hidden meanings of the questions.

I'm just saying there is room for improvement. But really, we know we're only going to get what we paid for, so we can't seriously complain when we get exactly that.

[ahem.]

Oh, this part got cut out of my last response...

Seriously? When you reference that it was in the podcast, I assumed you didn't like the responses that were in the podcast. If that's the case, then you should probably listen to it before criticizing. If not, why mention the 'cast at all?

Okay, I did listen to it because somebody was pointing out something else about it that they found weird. So what I mean was I didn't actively listen to it or include it in my analysis of the response. The reason I referenced it was that I initially intended this in response to a different thread where the podcast had been mentioned.

[Commander Keen]

I'm still not sure if you've even listened to the podcast. If you haven't I'd recommend you do so before attempting to make any other critiques, as they'd continue to be rather baseless.

That being said, if you have listened to the podcast, you should know that we said all of the following:
- 1-2 lbs per week is the maximum healthy amount you should lose. It may go much slower than that.
- Again, muscle weighs more than fat, so you may see initial gains in weight before losses (Addresses why she may not see weight loss even after a couple months).
- A doctor should be consulted for this kind of regimen (That would hopefully help them discover any existing underlying causes of not losing weight).
- Yet again, we gave multiple recommendations on things she could do as far as exercise goes. Get a personal trainer, start out walking, enjoy nature, don't make it a chore, etc.

Also, sure, numbers might not be the best way, but 1) they DO need to lose some weight, which we measure numerically, and 2) if you're all about us responding to their needs specifically, numbers seem to be the way to go. You said yourself that her intro meant he/she wanted to discuss weight loss. The best and really only true way to do this is through numbers.

Lastly, not only do I feel that we responded to this person's needs well enough, but that we also made it generic enough that it could apply to the questioner AND anyone else who might be looking for suggestions. If that isn't enough of an answer for you (keeping in mind that all of the things you just listed were actually included in our answer), then I guess we'll never satisfy.

PS, Foreman: No UR dumb! Lolololol

[ahem.]

I'm still not sure if you've even listened to the podcast.

Umm... yes I did. I said that.

But I think part of the issue here is that I consider the discussion during the podcast as a completely separate thing. I would hazard a guess that the audience for the podcast is much smaller than the readership of the Board in general, so anything said there is just a fun bonus for readers who want the illusion (<-- slight snark) of interacting more with the writers. I'm not giving it very much weight at all in this discussion because I kind of consider it extracurricular discussion like unto the discussions had here on this message board.

Since your only contribution to the question is through that podcast, I understand why you want to include it in this discussion, and that's fine. Just understand my viewpoint that it is not official Board Answer Canon, even though you might consider it as such.

Admit it. If you remove the discussion during the podcast, my arguments become a lot stronger.

In any case, I think we have all learned a lot from this experience! Good work everybody! I think we've made a lot of progress for today. Now let's go out there and be considerate, responsible human beings! Wooo! (<-- 'let's be friends' snark)

[Foreman]

I'm still not sure if you've even listened to the podcast.

Umm... yes I did. I said that.

Your clarification on this was in a response that posted barely before CK's. Your only mention before that was "which I admittedly didn't really listen to." Very vague, and his view of that was justified. You've since clarified. Drop it.

As for your other point: the Boardcast is indeed an answer. We don't write the same thing we've recorded because it would be dumb. Thus, we indicate if there's an audio answer. If you're interested enough in the question want to hear what it is, go listen to it. If not, fine then. But you can't say the question wasn't answered when...it was.

[Gimgimno]

Well this escalated! I say that we all take chill pills, address concerns through email, and shut our faces! I think that's a winner suggestion all around.

One, two, three, go!

[Craig Jessop]

I say that we all take chill pills

After a morning discussion amongst my roommates about the plural of "Book of Mormon," I almost told you that this should be "chills pill." Actually, I think I like that better.

[ahem.]

As for your other point: the Boardcast is indeed an answer.

Dude, you can say that, but it doesn't make it true. It's your opinion. And that is perfectly fine. I hold a different opinion.