Dress suits/Mormon culture

[Katya]

It appears I am arguing with a ghost.

Sorry. I realized that my argument would be better supported if I could bring other information to bear, so I went off in search of that information.

[Dead Cat]

It appears I am arguing with a ghost.

Ooooooh...Oooooooooooohhh...! I'm the ghost of Arguments Past! Fear me!

[Marduk]

Wired, you're taking a totally logical approach to this, and ignoring the stifling effect that an environment where conformity is urged creates. The urge to break from norms results not from an inherent desire for doing something different, but from the percieved restrictions of not being able to. Think about a claustrophobic person told to sleep in a coffin. A coffin is actually fairly comfortable; for a lot of people, they would sleep well in that body position on a bed. But when the freedom (even not exercised) to move is taken away, one panics. An animal in a cage becomes listless and lifeless, even with space to roam within the cage, simply from the imposed restrictions. It has little to do with the nature of the norm, and everything to do with the percieved removal of agency.

[Ineffable]

I think the dress/skirt thing isn't about fitting in/ feeling comfortable in a cultural norm, than a conscientious reflection of the sentiment expressed by President Nadauld:

Women of God can never be like women of the world. The world has enough women who are tough; we need women who are tender. There are enough women who are coarse; we need women who are kind. There are enough women who are rude; we need women who are refined. We have enough women of fame and fortune; we need more women of faith. We have enough greed; we need more goodness. We have enough vanity; we need more virtue. We have enough popularity; we need more purity.

Obviously, I'm not saying that being businesswoman and dressing like one makes you worldly. But I do think the policy of dress/skirt was in reaction to when pants and an aversion to traditional feminine roles and independence from men were closely tied together.

I do think the expected dress for women will change in the future as pantsuits aren't so ideologically charged as they once were. Just like "up to the neck and down to the ankle" (Pioneers in Petticoats, anyone?) is no longer viewed as the basis for modesty because care calves are no longer sexually charged like they once were.

p.s. just clarifying, "independence from men" meaning "we can do just fine without you, and the rest of you swine, thank you very much" not "I can function on my own and am equally as capable"

[Marduk]

Remember, this isn't so much a church policy as it is an inculcation of culture; even that New Era reference given in the original question isn't authoritative.

Personally, the reason women should be discouraged from wearing pantsuits is that they don't look good.

[Katya]

I think the dress/skirt thing isn't about fitting in/ feeling comfortable in a cultural norm, than a conscientious reflection of the sentiment expressed by President Nadauld:

Women of God can never be like women of the world. The world has enough women who are tough; we need women who are tender. There are enough women who are coarse; we need women who are kind. There are enough women who are rude; we need women who are refined. We have enough women of fame and fortune; we need more women of faith. We have enough greed; we need more goodness. We have enough vanity; we need more virtue. We have enough popularity; we need more purity.

Whenever people start making generalizations about how women ought to be, I like to run them through something called the "Pioneer Test." Basically, if the quality ascribed (or prescribed) to women doesn't apply to the women who crossed the plains, I call b.s. So, tough? Pretty sure that pioneer women had that quality by the wagonload. Refined? They didn't exactly have the luxury of spending their time having tea parties with fine bone china.

And if President Nadauld means that modern women should have these qualities (even if the pioneers didn't), then I regret to inform her that my life has been damn hard, and a weaker woman would have wilted under the pressure, so she can take her prissy little ideal woman and shove it.

[Quiet Lamb]

Everyone needs to calm down just a notch; this argument sounds hostile enough to make less-active members. Each of us have individual personalities that are wonderful, and not all women are going to have the same type of poise as their grandma had, and that is not bad. Conformity may be stifling for some, and it may comfort others, and some will not care what others are thinking around them despite their conformity or non-conformity. Now that being said, what I meant from my earlier comment was simply that there are many people that will feel uncomfortable week after week being the only one looking different. Our major concern was, with the woman that we taught and now is a recent convert, that eventually, if she does all the right steps, one day she will want to go to the temple. Then, someone will have to tell her she has to wear a dress there, while we've just been trying to skirt around the issue (if you'll pardon the pun.) She owns no dresses or skirts whatsoever. That would be one unnecessary shock for the day that is already overwhelming but wonderful.

[krebscout]

the reason women should be discouraged from wearing pantsuits is that they don't look good.

Pretty sure this is addressed in the same revelation that talks about shoulder pads.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

I think the dress/skirt thing isn't about fitting in/ feeling comfortable in a cultural norm, than a conscientious reflection of the sentiment expressed by President Nadauld:

Women of God can never be like women of the world. The world has enough women who are tough; we need women who are tender. There are enough women who are coarse; we need women who are kind. There are enough women who are rude; we need women who are refined. We have enough women of fame and fortune; we need more women of faith. We have enough greed; we need more goodness. We have enough vanity; we need more virtue. We have enough popularity; we need more purity.

By your logic:

Because this is true:
"Men of God can never be like men of the world. The world has enough men who are tough; we need men who are tender. There are enough men who are coarse; we need men who are kind. There are enough men who are rude; we need men who are refined. We have enough men of fame and fortune; we need more men of faith."

Therefore, men should wear dresses.

Does... not... compute.... error error... 10001110001101 *your computer explodes*

[Marduk]

....Therefore, men should wear dresses.

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. I'm glad someone else is saying it for once.

[Defy V]

I feel like one point that's been neglected is how Church leaders feel about all of this. To us we may perceive things as cultural, but to them it may feel like a matter of respect.

I remember when I used to wear flip-flops almost every week to church in the summer. Elder Holland gave an address to the Young Women saying we should look nice for church, and not like we were "going to the beach." There went the flip flops.

And I heard from President Hinckley's mouth that he did not like denim skirts. When I had the chance to meet him I was told to not wear a denim skirt. When he came in the room the first words he said were, "I'm so glad you're not wearing denim skirts" to all us girls. I hardly think that counts as church doctrine, but if it's important to the prophet of God (even if it's just his own opinion, which I'm sure it is), then I'm willing to respect him.

So if they feel that way about denim skirts, I bet they feel that way about pantsuits. I think that pantsuits are more professional than denim skirts, but they aren't skirts, so they probably take issue with them anyway. Perhaps someday pantsuits will become acceptable at church, just like not wearing hose or ankle-length dresses, especially as younger people move into positions of leadership in the church (i.e., born after 1960). But I'm willing to be conformist and wait. I don't like pantsuits.

[Imogen]

First of all, Marduk there are SOME pant suits that look great. You just have to pick the right one for you.

I'll say, I don't usually wear a dress or skirt to church unless it's summer. Of course, you also don't have to cover your head at Mass anymore. I still try to look nice, but I'll wear jeans to church. It bothers me when people come in mini-dresses to church. Or shirts with holes in them. Or hooker shoes.

But, I have been planning to get more dressed up for church. I don't see any problems with wearing nice slacks and a nice blouse to church.

[Dr. Smeed]

Man, there are some awesome arguments put forth here...

[Marduk]

Man, there are some awesome arguments put forth here...

I'm not really sure who or what you're referring to... Could you maybe be more specific?