http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/65450/
GA's comments about Santa really made me stop and think what I'm going to tell my own children about Santa when the time comes. As a child, I don't recall my parents nagging me, "Do this or don't do that because Santa won't bring you anything." All I can remember is the magic and excitement Santa brought me. Is it a selfish lie to let your child believe that the person they met at Disneyland was the real Snow White? I feel bad for kids like the girl in Miracle on 34th street that are told by their parents there is no such thing as Santa. And so, I feel like I have to get my kids excited about Santa or I'm not giving them the same awesome childhood I had. What are you going to tell your kids?
Kids and Santa
Moderator: Marduk
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NerdGirl
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Re: Kids and Santa
I'm a huge fan of Santa. And my parents never told us anything manipulative about how we had to be good or Santa wouldn't bring us stuff.
Re: Kids and Santa
When I was 8, I, idealistic and imaginative, still totes believed in Santa. My brother, at two, concluded that it just wasn't logical. I guess we'll see if my unborn children take after their uncle and never believe in the first place.
Re: Kids and Santa
Whoops, I didn't think there would already be a thread about this. I guess mine's kind of different because it focuses on the selfishness of the lie?
Re: Kids and Santa
Yeah, people can still feel free to comment! I was just letting you know that it was there.Talons wrote:Whoops, I didn't think there would already be a thread about this. I guess mine's kind of different because it focuses on the selfishness of the lie?
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Kids and Santa
Well, and people change, too. I just glanced through the other thread, and I'm not sure I feel the same as I did before. But I'm still entirely undecided. Dragon Baby is old enough this year to get more excited about holidays, but not enough to really get Santa. And we really just haven't talked much about Santa. If even at all. (Granted, we haven't really started doing much for Christmas at all, except after she's in bed I've been buying and wrapping Christmas presents. Almost done!) I don't plan on having a lot of Santa-decorations around (I'm much more of a Winter decorator than a Christmas one). But I also have no qualms with watching Christmas movies like Rudolph or Frosty the Snowman or Miracle on 34th Street.
My current thought is that I won't press the issue, but I won't hide it, either. I loved the magic of Christmas growing up, and have no memory of actually learning that Santa wasn't real (though I do have a memory of knowing that he wasn't, but denying it to my older brother who was trying to convince me he wasn't real, and flat out lying and saying that I found Santa's gloves in our fireplace the year before). When Dragon Baby gets old enough to wonder and actually ask, I'll probably say something like, "If you believe, then he's real." Just like I have no problems letting my kids have imaginary friends. They're not real, but so long as they believe in them, then those friends are real.
And to reply to something that Marduk said in the other thread, something about how we don't talk much about the Savior at Christmas, because we're all talking about Santa. I was thinking about that and I think it's largely because we can make up anything we want about Santa. It's easier to have prolonged conversations with kids about Santa, because when we don't know something, we can make it up. But with the birth of Christ, there is the story, and that's it. I would feel way too guilty actually making up details and essentially lying about the Savior. I think that if Santa weren't part of it, I'd still talk about the Nativity story just as much with my kids as I plan on doing now. It's just not as easy to make a whole fanatsy-esque world around the Savior's birth. And really, I don't think we should. So Santa and Frosty the Snowman and Ruldolph and all of those are an addition, in my mind, not a replacement. It's a way to have fun and increase imagination for the season. And in more appropriate settings (that we make a priority to make) we talk about the actual reason for the celebration. We let that part be more solemn and reverent. Santa allows for fun and chaos to be had, while the focus on the Savior can bring the reverent focus and requires an obvious difference of attitude. I think children can sense that change of attitude and can then sense the importance of reverence.
My goal is to make sure the spiritual moments are just as memorable as the superficial, worldly moments. My parents did a great job of this. I honestly don't remember much about Christmas mornings past. Sure, there are a few traditions I will always remember (sitting on the stairs, waiting for my dad to shower, protesting when he tried to convince us that we had to do chores first or when he looked downstairs and said that Santa did not, in fact, come this year, getting our own box of fun cereal, etc.). But the thing I really remember most about Christmas is the live nativity scene we did. I remember the hours and hours of getting it set up and the time and energy my parents spent on maintenance and upgrades every year. I remember taking care of the animals in there and the excitement of seeing what animals we'd get every year. Always a donkey and calves (we owned those), but sometimes we'd borrow llamas or goats or sheep. I remember the hours of setting up the lights so that there was a star on an old power pole that shone down and illuminated baby Jesus. I remember giving directions to people coming into town by telling them to follow the star in the east. I remember random people stopping all month long, getting out of their cars, and just sitting on the hay bales out front, just pondering and meditating for 10-30 minutes, then getting back in their cars and driving off. And mostly, I remember Christmas Eve putting on a program. People from hours away would drive through snowstorms to come to our 20 minute program. We changed it a bit every year, from who played the characters, or even who was in charge. Sometimes it was from the wise man's perspective, sometimes the shepherd's, sometimes just the classic story. But we always sang Silent Night at the end. I will always associate that song with those memories. And I almost always ended up in tears by the end. My parents made the Nativity story a very integral part of the Christmas season for us as kids.
A few years back we had a haystack spontaneously combust and burnt down several sheds, including the one we used for the nativity. And the one that housed all of the things we used for props. My parents chose not to rebuild it because they were getting old and it was getting hard to maintain, and they wanted to go on missions and didn't want to have to find people to maintain it while they were gone. They had many, many offers to help rebuild it, though. The community was devastated. But they decided to let that be the end of the tradition. I'll be honest, that's left a hole in my heart every Christmas when I get home and there is no donkey, no star, no music, no Mary, Joseph or Jesus outside. It's simply not Christmas to me without the Nativity.
THAT'S the kind of impression I want to make on my kids. I want to make the Nativity Story a part of the season. But I want to also be able to keep it special and reverent. Which is why, I think, I'm going to be ok with letting the fun aspects of Christmas have their part as well.
My current thought is that I won't press the issue, but I won't hide it, either. I loved the magic of Christmas growing up, and have no memory of actually learning that Santa wasn't real (though I do have a memory of knowing that he wasn't, but denying it to my older brother who was trying to convince me he wasn't real, and flat out lying and saying that I found Santa's gloves in our fireplace the year before). When Dragon Baby gets old enough to wonder and actually ask, I'll probably say something like, "If you believe, then he's real." Just like I have no problems letting my kids have imaginary friends. They're not real, but so long as they believe in them, then those friends are real.
And to reply to something that Marduk said in the other thread, something about how we don't talk much about the Savior at Christmas, because we're all talking about Santa. I was thinking about that and I think it's largely because we can make up anything we want about Santa. It's easier to have prolonged conversations with kids about Santa, because when we don't know something, we can make it up. But with the birth of Christ, there is the story, and that's it. I would feel way too guilty actually making up details and essentially lying about the Savior. I think that if Santa weren't part of it, I'd still talk about the Nativity story just as much with my kids as I plan on doing now. It's just not as easy to make a whole fanatsy-esque world around the Savior's birth. And really, I don't think we should. So Santa and Frosty the Snowman and Ruldolph and all of those are an addition, in my mind, not a replacement. It's a way to have fun and increase imagination for the season. And in more appropriate settings (that we make a priority to make) we talk about the actual reason for the celebration. We let that part be more solemn and reverent. Santa allows for fun and chaos to be had, while the focus on the Savior can bring the reverent focus and requires an obvious difference of attitude. I think children can sense that change of attitude and can then sense the importance of reverence.
My goal is to make sure the spiritual moments are just as memorable as the superficial, worldly moments. My parents did a great job of this. I honestly don't remember much about Christmas mornings past. Sure, there are a few traditions I will always remember (sitting on the stairs, waiting for my dad to shower, protesting when he tried to convince us that we had to do chores first or when he looked downstairs and said that Santa did not, in fact, come this year, getting our own box of fun cereal, etc.). But the thing I really remember most about Christmas is the live nativity scene we did. I remember the hours and hours of getting it set up and the time and energy my parents spent on maintenance and upgrades every year. I remember taking care of the animals in there and the excitement of seeing what animals we'd get every year. Always a donkey and calves (we owned those), but sometimes we'd borrow llamas or goats or sheep. I remember the hours of setting up the lights so that there was a star on an old power pole that shone down and illuminated baby Jesus. I remember giving directions to people coming into town by telling them to follow the star in the east. I remember random people stopping all month long, getting out of their cars, and just sitting on the hay bales out front, just pondering and meditating for 10-30 minutes, then getting back in their cars and driving off. And mostly, I remember Christmas Eve putting on a program. People from hours away would drive through snowstorms to come to our 20 minute program. We changed it a bit every year, from who played the characters, or even who was in charge. Sometimes it was from the wise man's perspective, sometimes the shepherd's, sometimes just the classic story. But we always sang Silent Night at the end. I will always associate that song with those memories. And I almost always ended up in tears by the end. My parents made the Nativity story a very integral part of the Christmas season for us as kids.
A few years back we had a haystack spontaneously combust and burnt down several sheds, including the one we used for the nativity. And the one that housed all of the things we used for props. My parents chose not to rebuild it because they were getting old and it was getting hard to maintain, and they wanted to go on missions and didn't want to have to find people to maintain it while they were gone. They had many, many offers to help rebuild it, though. The community was devastated. But they decided to let that be the end of the tradition. I'll be honest, that's left a hole in my heart every Christmas when I get home and there is no donkey, no star, no music, no Mary, Joseph or Jesus outside. It's simply not Christmas to me without the Nativity.
THAT'S the kind of impression I want to make on my kids. I want to make the Nativity Story a part of the season. But I want to also be able to keep it special and reverent. Which is why, I think, I'm going to be ok with letting the fun aspects of Christmas have their part as well.
Re: Kids and Santa
yeah, not sure if I care enough about Santa to tell my future kids about it. Man, I really wanted Santa to be real when I was a kid, but he wasn't. That was kind of disappointing.
Re: Kids and Santa
So, I happened to read a relevant passage about this. It is from "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn":
I don't know if I entirely agree with this quote, but it is interesting to think about. My parents were always a little mysterious about Santa Claus. "Maybe he is real, maybe not. What do you think?" And I found out in a pretty weird way, by simply walking in on them wrapping presents and signing them "Santa Claus." I don't feel like it was a traumatic let down, just something that I learned. Santa doesn't have to be a horrible lie, it can just be another fairy tale-esque story like Cinderella."Mother, I know there are no ghosts or fairies. I would be teaching the child foolish lies."
Mary spoke sharply, "You do not know whether there are not ghosts on earth or angels in heaven."
"I know there is no Santa Claus."
"Yet you must teach the child that these things are so."
"Why? When I, myself, do not believe?"
"Because," explained Mary Rommely simply, "the child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that she believe. She must start out by believing in things not of this world. Then when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in her imagination. I, myself, even in this day and at my age, have great need of recalling the miraculous lives of the Saints and the great miracles that have come to pass on earth. Only by having these things in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for."
"The child will grow up and find out things for herself. She will know that I lied. She will be disappointed."
"That is what is called learning the truth. It is a good thing to learn the truth one's self. To first believe with all your heart, and then not believe, is good too. It fattens the emotions and makes them to stretch. When as a woman life and people disappoint her, she will have had practice in disappointment and it will not come so hard. In teaching your child, do not forget that suffering is good too. It makes a person rich in character."
Re: Kids and Santa
Dragon Lady, that is the most beautiful Christmas tradition story..thanks for sharing.
Re: Kids and Santa
hmmm... nice quote Mic0. I guess I still have plenty of time to decide if teaching about Santa is fun or not.
Re: Kids and Santa
I love that story DL. I guess I need to figure out how to make spiritual family Christmas traditions that my children will remember in the same way.
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Kids and Santa
So do I.Talons wrote:I love that story DL. I guess I need to figure out how to make spiritual family Christmas traditions that my children will remember in the same way.
Yellow told me before we even got married that if we ever live next door to a haystack, he's failed. So, I think a live nativity scene is going to be out of the question. (Especially since our new house doesn't have a lot of yard space.) So now we're talking about ways we can make a spiritual tradition that lasts all month and is constantly visible as a reminder. Thoughts, anyone?Re: Kids and Santa
I really like having Christmas elves hiding around, maybe they could be renamed as guardian angels? 
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Kids and Santa
Ok, my current thoughts (as they seem to change almost daily):
I'm going to let Santa, etc. be part of our family. I probably won't push it on my kids, but I'll let our culture, friends, etc., teach them. And I'm sure I'll say things, too. I'll probably be willing to take my kids to the mall to get a picture on Santa's lap (or at the ward Christmas party, or whatever). And then when the inevitable question, "Mom, is Santa real?" comes up, I'll ask them what they think. I'll let them decide and won't tell them one way or the other. I'll instead using it as a tool to help them develop deductive reasoning.
We went and watched Arthur Christmas the other night and I loved it. And I realized a lot of the Christmas movies that I love have to do with proving that Santa is real. Because I love the magic that is involved with believing. It makes me happy every Christmas season and I can't fathom my kids not having that as part of their lives. Because even after I learned Santa wasn't real, the magic was already engrained into me. It can't do that if it's never allowed to bud and grow there in the first place.
By making this decision, I'm also committing myself to find a project that will also focus our attention on the nativity story, as discussed above. My current idea (which may change) is to have an empty manger in our family room and a bag of straw next to it. Then whenever Yellow or I do service, we can put a piece of straw in it. For now, since Dragon Baby is too little to really understand the difference between being good and doing service, we'll let her put a piece of straw in whenever she does something good, even if it's something we expect her to do. We'll change our expectations for her as she gets older. The goal being that by doing service, we can build a comfortable bed for the baby Jesus. That way, we can focus the month of December on service (and doing good things) and show how we're helping Christ by serving others in a very visible and tangible way. We used to do this in Seminary every year, which is where I got the idea. And having something special like this is something that Dragon Baby is bound to love. And want to do things to put straw in it. My fear is that she'll also love to pull the straw out and I'll end up cleaning up straw all over my house...
I'm going to let Santa, etc. be part of our family. I probably won't push it on my kids, but I'll let our culture, friends, etc., teach them. And I'm sure I'll say things, too. I'll probably be willing to take my kids to the mall to get a picture on Santa's lap (or at the ward Christmas party, or whatever). And then when the inevitable question, "Mom, is Santa real?" comes up, I'll ask them what they think. I'll let them decide and won't tell them one way or the other. I'll instead using it as a tool to help them develop deductive reasoning.
We went and watched Arthur Christmas the other night and I loved it. And I realized a lot of the Christmas movies that I love have to do with proving that Santa is real. Because I love the magic that is involved with believing. It makes me happy every Christmas season and I can't fathom my kids not having that as part of their lives. Because even after I learned Santa wasn't real, the magic was already engrained into me. It can't do that if it's never allowed to bud and grow there in the first place.
By making this decision, I'm also committing myself to find a project that will also focus our attention on the nativity story, as discussed above. My current idea (which may change) is to have an empty manger in our family room and a bag of straw next to it. Then whenever Yellow or I do service, we can put a piece of straw in it. For now, since Dragon Baby is too little to really understand the difference between being good and doing service, we'll let her put a piece of straw in whenever she does something good, even if it's something we expect her to do. We'll change our expectations for her as she gets older. The goal being that by doing service, we can build a comfortable bed for the baby Jesus. That way, we can focus the month of December on service (and doing good things) and show how we're helping Christ by serving others in a very visible and tangible way. We used to do this in Seminary every year, which is where I got the idea. And having something special like this is something that Dragon Baby is bound to love. And want to do things to put straw in it. My fear is that she'll also love to pull the straw out and I'll end up cleaning up straw all over my house...
Re: Kids and Santa
I wish I could pin this idea!Dragon Lady wrote: My current idea (which may change) is to have an empty manger in our family room and a bag of straw next to it. Then whenever Yellow or I do service, we can put a piece of straw in it. For now, since Dragon Baby is too little to really understand the difference between being good and doing service, we'll let her put a piece of straw in whenever she does something good, even if it's something we expect her to do. We'll change our expectations for her as she gets older. The goal being that by doing service, we can build a comfortable bed for the baby Jesus. That way, we can focus the month of December on service (and doing good things) and show how we're helping Christ by serving others in a very visible and tangible way. We used to do this in Seminary every year, which is where I got the idea. And having something special like this is something that Dragon Baby is bound to love. And want to do things to put straw in it. My fear is that she'll also love to pull the straw out and I'll end up cleaning up straw all over my house...
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Kids and Santa
Eirene, if we do it, I'll take a picture and blog it so you can!
Re: Kids and Santa
I realize i'm a little late to the party, but i found this. It's pretty much how my parents explained Santa to me, too. I feel that this way, we got all the positives of Santa (parents got to see how surprised and happy we were, i got to exercise my imagination and belief in the unseen, etc.) without the negatives––i never felt tricked, lied to, or let down in any way. I think my parents handled it pretty well.
"She was illusive. She was today. She was tomorrow. She was the faintest scent of a cactus flower, the flitting shadow of an elf owl."
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Kids and Santa
I like that.stargirl wrote:I realize i'm a little late to the party, but i found this. It's pretty much how my parents explained Santa to me, too. I feel that this way, we got all the positives of Santa (parents got to see how surprised and happy we were, i got to exercise my imagination and belief in the unseen, etc.) without the negatives––i never felt tricked, lied to, or let down in any way. I think my parents handled it pretty well.
Re: Kids and Santa
Not to rain on the parade but I think this is terribly cheesy... I guess I don't really get warm fuzzies from the ideal of Santa.stargirl wrote:I realize i'm a little late to the party, but i found this. It's pretty much how my parents explained Santa to me, too. I feel that this way, we got all the positives of Santa (parents got to see how surprised and happy we were, i got to exercise my imagination and belief in the unseen, etc.) without the negatives––i never felt tricked, lied to, or let down in any way. I think my parents handled it pretty well.