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[Giovanni Schwartz]

However, with that said, I'll let you know that many of my decisions as admin here are largely influenced by the desire to separate this board from the Board.

This strikes me as ironic, seeing as this is the 100 Hour Board message board.

[Tally M.]

Depending on where they went to school and what their home life was like, they are unprepared for hours of research, seeing different points of view, managing their time, thinking deeply, and writing well.

I told myself I was going to stay out of this. But after reading this I couldn't.

That's a horrible generalization. People at BYU are attending a quality university. I don't believe you can dismiss out of hand the thousands of students that go to BYU and say that they don't spend hours researching, that they don't see different points of view, that they don't manage their time, that they don't think deeply, or that they don't write well.

I don't even know how to explain how off-putting it is that that kind of assumption is made. I do agree that BYU as a whole could be considered rather conservative--but not everyone at BYU is a cookie-cutter, despite what everyone says.

I love spending hours researching different topics. I spent my high school career doing debate and seeing different sides of view. I've learned how to manage my time. I love thinking about complex things. And I've been writing as a hobby for most of my life, and I'd say I'm fairly decent.

[Zedability]

I cannot agree with you that the Board is always or even usually balanced, and the idea that you might need more conservative writers to balance out the more liberal ones is almost laughable.

I didn't say I think we need more conservative writers, I just said it's good that we have some. Again, the Board is a BYU product, and as much as some writers and readers may disagree with the conservative viewpoint, it needs to be voiced in order to accurately represent BYU or address the concerns or actions of readers whose worldview is informed by a conservative mindset. In fact, we've received multiple questions pointing out that the Board seems to be more left-leaning than the overall BYU population. While I wouldn't say we're liberal by any means, we are more liberal than a random survey of BYU students. So if anything, the Board is skewed towards your side, not balanced. And it's not as liberal as you might like, but again, that's unreasonable to expect of BYU. And I don't see anything wrong with that, despite the fact that the Board is more conservative than I am too.

Be determined to get them from BYU by all means, but understand what that means you'll have to work with - a group of people that is largely young, just barely getting started on their own, and haven't so much as stopped to think about why a shoulder is immodest, much less start questioning why Republicans are the One True Party. (Not to bash anyone who does believe shoulders should be covered or vote Republican; I'm pointing out the immaturity or close-mindedness in blindly accepting these as fact.)

Really? While we might have Board writers who vote Republican or prefer to cover their shoulders, I don't know of a single writer who "hasn't stopped to think" about things like this. To me, it feels like you have this persistent opinion that a significant portion of people we've accepted onto the Board haven't ever tried to think for themselves or discover their own opinion. From the discussions that go on behind the scenes on the Board, I feel pretty comfortable saying that every single one of us is the type of people who have "stopped to think" before. It feels pretty condescending that you consistently assume that anyone younger and more conservative than you is "blindly accepting" things.

And again, I don't think there's anything with the writers being young and just barely getting started. We represent a university that largely caters to undergraduates, most of our questions are from undergraduates, and the Board has really always been that way. We do understand that's what we're getting. But we don't seem to think this is a negative quality, the way you apparently do.

Depending on where they went to school and what their home life was like, they are unprepared for hours of research, seeing different points of view, managing their time, thinking deeply, and writing well. (Some of the stories in Marduk's creative writing class just make me sad...)

Yeah, that's a pretty good description of the applications we reject and why we're trying to figure out how to weed them out with the application.

The Board is what it is, and what it is is an exclusive club made up of students in a school sponsored and run by a religion that still has some growing up to do. That was how it started and how it is likely to continue, and if nothing else it is interesting in its continued depictions of the lives and thoughts of Mormons at BYU. However, with that said, I'll let you know that many of my decisions as admin here are largely influenced by the desire to separate this board from the Board, and it seems telling to me that we have a lot of active members who almost never read the Board any more.

Absolutely it's telling. To me, it suggests that a lot of readers who began reading in their undergraduate years eventually found that the Board has remained a largely undergraduate product, and they prefer to talk to people their own age. Which totally makes sense and there's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that the Board should change to accomodate them. I don't visit the same websites I did when I was twelve, but I still appreciate that they do a good job of entertaining the twelve-year-olds.

[No Dice]

When people say that something is unbalanced, they typically mean that it doesn't express as many of their views as they would like. As Zed mentions, the Board tacks farther left than BYU as a whole, and I see no reason a) why this is bad, or b) why it should tack anywhere else, under the auspices of "balance."

[Squirrel]

The Board is what it is, and what it is is an exclusive club made up of students in a school sponsored and run by a religion that still has some growing up to do. That was how it started and how it is likely to continue, and if nothing else it is interesting in its continued depictions of the lives and thoughts of Mormons at BYU. However, with that said, I'll let you know that many of my decisions as admin here are largely influenced by the desire to separate this board from the Board, and it seems telling to me that we have a lot of active members who almost never read the Board any more.

The religion doesn't need any growing up. It's already there. It's the people that need growing up- but that's what we're all here for, right? Why should it matter if you are a member or not? I had some friends in high school that were Muslim and Lutheran, and we had really great discussions that helped us develop our opinions. It didn't tear us apart- we gained more respect for each other, and grew closer. I don't understand why the 100 Hour Message Board would feel threatened by the 100 Hour Board itself. This place was designed for users to have fun chatting about topics on the Board.

[Squirrel]

The Board isn't exclusive. Any student at BYU is allowed to apply, anyone can post questions, and anyone can join the Board board.

[Zedability]

The Board isn't exclusive. Any student at BYU is allowed to apply, anyone can post questions, and anyone can join the Board board.

I think she's saying it's exclusive in the sense that it's exclusive to students who are currently attending BYU at their time of application.

[Squirrel]

oh.

[Marduk]

When people say that something is unbalanced, they typically mean that it doesn't express as many of their views as they would like. As Zed mentions, the Board tacks farther left than BYU as a whole, and I see no reason a) why this is bad, or b) why it should tack anywhere else, under the auspices of "balance."

I'd agree with the first statement as a generality. However, I don't think there's sufficient evidence to say that the board is more liberal than BYU at large. Rather, I think it is more conservative than the general student body, however, it is one of the few places where more liberal ideas are expressed openly. That is to say, the publications of the university demonstrate a conservative bias (are more biased than the student body they ostensibly represent) and that bias is less present in the board.

As to the larger point, I think greater care needs to be given in the selection process of the application, and (much to the chagrin of some members of the board) be more open to the board at large, as well as an open process for potential recruits. The whole "super secret club" aspect of it attracts those who would be more inclined to want that specifically, and are less interested in what the board actually does in day to day operations. If the process were opened, perhaps with face to face meetings and more public interaction, that factor would be diminished, and one could attract a portion of the student body that is more interested in the research and writing end of things.

Again, any discussion of form and policy necessitates a discussion of what the board "should be." This has the side effect of people normalizing their perspective of what the board is, and hence decrying others who may see it differently. The board is not a monolithic entity that has always been "x" (conservative, liberal, secretive, official, BYU sponsored, etc) and so to argue that it needs to always continue to be "x" defeats the purpose of trying to mold it into a given direction.

Hence, this discussion can only be productive if it moves from a historical analysis to a functional analysis, that is, from trying to define what the board "was" to trying to define what it "should be."

[UffishThought]

Just to make it clear, my question wasn't based in the ability to DO anything about it--I don't write anymore, nor do I edit. It was just something that I always had in the back of my mind when I was doing the hiring. I wanted to improve the process somehow--attract more dedicated writers or weed out the poorer writers--but I never came up with anything I felt was a surefire method.

[Gimgimno]

Just as a note, you are literally outside of your mind if you think that the Board is generally right of the BYU student body. Outside of your mind. If you had to sit through any social science class for one week, especially during the height of election season, you might begin to understand how conservative the average BYU student is.

[Zedability]

Just as a note, you are literally outside of your mind if you think that the Board is generally right of the BYU student body. Outside of your mind. If you had to sit through any social science class for one week, especially during the height of election season, you might begin to understand how conservative the average BYU student is.

I skipped my Philosophy class for like a month when we were talking about health care and socialism/capitalism. And this was back when I never skipped class. (Unlike now, when I skip class unless I literally have to show up for some reason.)

[Marduk]

Just as a note, you are literally outside of your mind if you think that the Board is generally right of the BYU student body. Outside of your mind. If you had to sit through any social science class for one week, especially during the height of election season, you might begin to understand how conservative the average BYU student is.

Social science is certainly not an average selection of the BYU student body.

[No Dice]

Why would social science students be biased toward conservatism?

[mic0]

Why would social science students be biased toward conservatism?

Maybe Gimgimno isn't saying social science students specifically are biased towards conservatism, but that discussions about political/social issues tend to come up more in social science classes than in hard science classes, and therefore you can really see how many conservatives are around in general.

Gimgimno, is it okay to put words in your mouth? Thanks! Sorry if I was off base.

[Marduk]

Social science students in general? Perhaps not so much. Social science students who specifically chose to go to BYU for their major? I think a lot more. If you're going into social science, the conservative/liberal leanings of your school are going to factor into your decision. Not as much as political science, say, but I'd wager that the average social science student is much more conservative than say, the average English/Philosophy/Art major.

[Zedability]

Social science students in general? Perhaps not so much. Social science students who specifically chose to go to BYU for their major? I think a lot more. If you're going into social science, the conservative/liberal leanings of your school are going to factor into your decision. Not as much as political science, say, but I'd wager that the average social science student is much more conservative than say, the average English/Philosophy/Art major.

Sure, but in all of my general classes - philosophy 150, american heritage, stats 121, pd bio 120 - the class discussions usually reflected a lot of conservative viewpoints.

[OptimusPrime]

Depending on where they went to school and what their home life was like, they are unprepared for hours of research, seeing different points of view, managing their time, thinking deeply, and writing well.

The fact that you honestly believe this applies to most people at BYU (and not yourself) is astounding. I suppose growing up in the East, reading voraciously, having inactive family members, attending arguably the highest achieving public high school in the country, living in a formerly communist country where most are atheist, learning Czech, and getting a bachelors and masters in Computer Science don't count for anything these days. I wish my parents had divorced or something so I could learn to think deeply and see different points of view. If only I had somehow learned how to research!

Think of Petra. She reads literally hundreds of books a year, is extremely intelligent (Hinckley scholar, etc), travels all over the world (not just tourist locations, ALL over), knows enough about languages to get by in all of those places, was friends with the gay community at BYU, and ends up working for Facebook. Just your typical Utah mormon.

Let me reiterate. There are thousands of people at BYU who have a wide array of experiences and skills that would make them wonderful board writers. Finding them may be difficult, but we've always had hits and misses on the board. Diluting the board with older disenchanted former BYU students (with an agenda) is not the answer.

P.S. So Optimus, who is allowed to call others immature? I mean aside from you, obviously. : ) Really though, while I know I still have more to figure out, I'm significantly further along than, say, my parents, so you can see why I'd be a little confident.

Only the immature. So I suppose I am, because I never did say I myself was mature. If I was I probably wouldn't be wasting my time reading, much less responding to, the puerile drivel on this board. But it entertains me, so here I am. Stinky butt.

[Marduk]

Optimus, you need to calm down. You're free to express whatever opinions you may have about the various subjects on this board. You are not free to insult the members of this board so passive-aggressively (even if they post their thoughts tactlessly) and definitely not free to disparage this board. When you have comments about the content of this board, you are free to express them in a substantive way.

[thatonemom]

Social science students in general? Perhaps not so much. Social science students who specifically chose to go to BYU for their major? I think a lot more. If you're going into social science, the conservative/liberal leanings of your school are going to factor into your decision. Not as much as political science, say, but I'd wager that the average social science student is much more conservative than say, the average English/Philosophy/Art major.

I'm curious if anyone has examples of current social science students being more conservative. I graduated in History (back in '04, so I recognize that might not reflect current students) but I found a lot of the opposite. I had friends graduate in Sociology, Psychology, and Anthropology and no one seemed to think their majors were more conservative than the general BYU student body. Which is who takes the 100-level GE classes, and doesn't really reflect people who go on to finish the major.

I don't think the faculty in those disciplines are especially conservative, either. One of my BYU bishops was a Sociology professor, and he said some pretty darn liberal things. Our ward high councilman at the time was Darron Smith who also taught Sociology. And you'd just be crazy to call him conservative.

Of course BYU on the whole is more conservative than other universities, but that doesn't mean you can't find plenty of liberals. And thoughtful, open-minded, intelligent people of all types.