71111 - Talking about same-sex attraction/the gay

[TheBlackSheep]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/71111/

I enjoyed many parts of Zedability's answer. Thanks for taking this one on, Zed!

I don't think you can address the issues in the way this person wants to address them without drawing attention or "suspicion" to yourself. People are always going to wonder. You can always try to frame in the my-friend-experiences-same-sex-attraction kind of way but that gets tricky and always felt like lying to me.

Now that I'm older and out of BYU, if I could go back and come out much earlier than I did, I would. That's a really easy position to take from here, and I know that. I also know that I am not the kind of same-sex attracted person that this guy wants to be, and I believe that people are entitled to privacy. However, I very firmly believe that when people refuse to acknowledge their sexual orientation for fear of their peers, they are communicating that there is a reason to be ashamed. That is the lesson we teach when we are closeted, and I believe this person wants to teach the opposite lesson. The church has been clear that there is no sin and no shame in being attracted to members of your own sex, but I feel like it's up to the folks with same-sex attraction to prove it. I don't think anybody needs to go around with a sign that says, "I experience same-sex attraction!" but I also don't think that anybody needs to be afraid that if they address these issues frankly someone might cotton on.

And I tried to meet the question asker halfway by using the term "same-sex attraction" throughout this post (I just can't bring myself to use "same-gender attraction," but I tried), but I also wanted to mention that many people are just as offended by those terms as this person is by the terms gay and queer. So, you know. Understanding. Compassion. All those good things.

[Zedability]

Thanks

I think word choice when talking about this is always a tricky issue, just because there are so many different ways people react to sexuality and so few words to contain these things, I don't think there's a ton of consensus on what connotations each word has.

Out of curiosity, why do you dislike "same-gender attraction"? I remember hearing reasons against it in high school, but it's been a while since then.

[TheBlackSheep]

I think that, for me, it boils down to two reasons:

1. The term is, I believe, inaccurate. Gender does not equal sex. Sex is more or less a binary with some room for chromosomal abnormalities. Some people believe that gender is basically the same thing, and we could debate that all day, but to me, there are many, many, many possible expressions of gender. Many people who are attracted to members of their own sex are not attracted to members of their own gender, for simplicity's sake. Many people believe that terms like gay oversimplify the issue, but I feel that way about the term same-gender attraction. Then again, I'm a person who chooses to identify as queer over bisexual or pans, so that's who you're dealing with.

2. One of the main reasons I have heard for using terms like same-sex attraction has to do with the perceived overly-sexualized connotations of terms like gay. I'd disagree but I can see their point. However, I feel like the term same-gender attraction takes it even further. I don't think that many people who would use either same-sex or same-gender attraction are overly concerned about differentiating between sex and gender. My perception is that the choice to use same-gender attraction is an attempt to remove sex from the topic completely. Sex is not by any means the most important part of this conversation, but removing it completely from almost any conversation makes me uncomfortable, because when you're talking about anything that makes us human, I feel you have to be willing to at least acknowledge sex.

I hope that made sense. My work day has my brain seeping out of my ears.

[Zedability]

That makes a lot of sense. Okay, another question, if you don't mind - what's the difference between queer and bisexual?

[TheBlackSheep]

Bisexual just means attracted to both males and females. Pansexual means possible attraction to anybody, regardless of sex or gender. Queer is like a blanket term that can be invoked by anybody in all of the alphabet soup, except for those that are just stone cold straight and cisgender. I briefly tried out a bunch of these terms for myself (straight, bi, and gay all had their time... pans had, like, half an hour) and just landed on queer. I'm somewhere in that rainbow but who knows exactly where.

[TheBlackSheep]

But if somebody asks what flavor of queer I am, I usually say bisexual.

[Zedability]

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks

[TheBlackSheep]

You're welcome.

[Emiliana]

Thanks for the clarification on same-gender/same-sex, TBS.

Also, to me there is something very beautiful about bisexuality and pansexuality. Those of us who are only attracted to one gender* automatically disqualify at least 50% of the population based on something fairly arbitrary, whereas the bi or pans people I know don't seem to have quite the same limitations.



* or at least, having a very, very strong preference for only one gender

[Whistler]

they could have some other limitation, like only liking people with brown eyes or something, but yeah

[Marduk]

Words words words, as TBS says.

Sexuality is always such a minefield in terms of terms and definitions. I get up in arms over immigration and race terms, but I feel like those are so much less ambiguous. I mean, it is pretty clear why someone wouldn't want to be called an "illegal." But with sexuality, someone will feel strong attachment to one term, and such antagonism towards another, while someone else feels exactly the opposite. I want to use the labels people want me to use, but sometimes it is just so laced with potential faux pas.

[Katya]

Out of curiosity, why do you dislike "same-gender attraction"? I remember hearing reasons against it in high school, but it's been a while since then.

Also, I tend to assume many Church leaders who use the term "gender" do so because they're uncomfortable using the word "sex," not because they're thoughtfully choosing the word whose nuanced meaning best fits what they're trying to express.

[Zedability]

True, I was thinking more of differentiating between "same-sex attraction" and "gay," which I know a lot of people do for the same reason as this guy, that they differentiate between a gay lifestyle and having homosexual feelings.

It bugs me when I can tell people are saying "gender" instead of "sex" because they're uncomfortable with saying "sex," but since so many people in the Church do it, I also find that a lot of people just automatically use the two interchangeably, so I tend to forget the distinction myself a lot of the time.

But when I can tell people are avoiding saying things like "sex" because they're really uncomfortable with just saying it, I generally try to work the word into the conversation as much as possible. Because I can be mean sometimes. /boardboardconfessions

[TheBlackSheep]

Also, I tend to assume many Church leaders who use the term "gender" do so because they're uncomfortable using the word "sex," not because they're thoughtfully choosing the word whose nuanced meaning best fits what they're trying to express.

Yeeeeeeah, that's more or less what I was trying to say. I was just more wordy about it.

True, I was thinking more of differentiating between "same-sex attraction" and "gay," which I know a lot of people do for the same reason as this guy, that they differentiate between a gay lifestyle and having homosexual feelings.

Like I say, I get the argument, but there are sooooo many reasons this makes some folks, even LGBTQ LDS folks, uncomfortable.

But when I can tell people are avoiding saying things like "sex" because they're really uncomfortable with just saying it, I generally try to work the word into the conversation as much as possible. Because I can be mean sometimes. /boardboardconfessions

You and I both, sister.

But with sexuality, someone will feel strong attachment to one term, and such antagonism towards another, while someone else feels exactly the opposite. I want to use the labels people want me to use, but sometimes it is just so laced with potential faux pas.

It's true. I do try to use the words people use to describe themselves and let them identify how they want to identify. And I do try not to get too wound up because I understand all the reasons for all the terms and I try to respect people, but it's much harder for me when the terms come from people who do not identify that way. I am aware of my bias (I would much rather be called dyke than "someone with same-gender attraction") and I try to neutralize it but we all know how that goes.

[Zedability]

Okay, so why do some people dislike saying "same-sex attraction" instead? (I think this is generally a Church-y thing, so I've never run into someone with the opposite opinion. This is why the Boardboard is great.)

[TheBlackSheep]

Some big reasons:

1. Whether you are straight, gay, bi, ace, etc., etc., etc., your sexuality has a lot to do with who you are. It touches and influences many of your experiences. People who use the term "same-sex attraction" do so to communicate that it is not an identity but merely a set of attractions. Some folks believe that it is unhealthy to compartmentalize one's sexuality in such a way. They would believe that celibacy is potentially healthy but reducing one's sexuality in this way is not.

2. "Same-sex attraction" is thought by many to be too clinical a term. It sounds like a condition and has made many people feel as if they were diseased when they used it or others used it for them.

3. Many feel that it is not good for the gay rights movement (I'm not talking about marriage equality or anything... just about the part where folks recognize that homosexuality does in fact exist and we give basic rights and protections) and for awareness of the homosexual/bisexual/etc. experience. Avoiding the use of the word gay because you want to avoid the connotations of a gay lifestyle communicates that there is, in fact, A gay lifestyle. No such thing exists. There are many celibate folks who are out and call themselves gay, and among sexually active gay folks there is so much diversity (just as much as in the straight community). Society created the gay culture of the 60s and 70s, and in some ways gay culture is still in its adolescence. There are of course many, many gay people in monogamous, committed relationships and an incredible number of straight people having sexual encounters with many partners. However, when we perpetuate the stereotype of "the gay lifestyle," many believe that we help slow down the maturing of the culture.

4. The LDS church is not the only institution to use the phrases "same-sex attraction" and "same-gender attraction." Other conservative institutions do, too, as do many institutions that endorse reparative therapy. Reparative therapy is thought by many to be very damaging to people who undergo it. The APA doesn't endorse it anymore.

[Zedability]

So it sounds to me (and I may be wrong) like, in essence, "same-sex attraction" carries a lot of conservative assumptions and baggage, and "gay" tends to denote a more liberal way of looking at it (which also leaves room for celibacy).

[Marduk]

I'd just like to take this moment to come out publicly as one who suffers from opposite-sex attraction.

[Zedability]

Also: The more I understand about this from your perspective, the less I understand why you enjoyed my answer, haha (But that's okay – growing up in Canada, I experienced more of a live-and-let-live perspective; there was of course homophobia and individual struggles about sexuality, but it wasn't seen as a "societal problem" the same way. So I feel like I don't really know much about the politics of it.)

[Gimgimno]

I talked about this once in a question when a gentleman asked for advice about coming out. THIS WAS ALREADY BOARD CANON, GUYS.

TBS as my witness, amen.