Russian question

[Katya]

So, I was talking with a friend about how the word Ukraine is related to the Russian word край, meaning "edge or rim" (since Ukraine is on the edge of Russia), and he wondered if Russian speakers (or Ukrainian speakers) ever make a joke or pun out of the word, like, "those edgy Ukrainians," (although the word "edgy" probably doesn't directly translate). So, Russian-speaking (or married to Russian-speaking) friends, can you answer his question?

[Yarjka]

Край, while literally meaning "edge," also means "country" or "land" in poetic and archaic usage. Currently, it is also the official designation for a "province," with no bearing on it being on the edge. In Ukrainian, the common word for "country" is країна.

See here for a fairly good summary.

I think the word "territory" in English would be similar.

[mic0]

Okay, I just now asked Mr. Mico. He was all flustered and, like, "that's just the name of the country!" So then I asked him straight-up, "well do people ever make jokes/puns out of the name?" To which he replied without hesitation, "no." So, that's at least one Russian's experience. Also, I asked him what kinds of things Ukrainians are made fun of for and it is apparently for their "funny sounding [to Russians]" language. Sorry, Yarjka, and the Ukranians.

[Digit]

Just don't call the Ukraine weak while you're playing Risk on the subway.

[Katya]

Interesting! Thanks for the responses, all.

[OptimusPrime]

For a secondary perspective, in Czech, "kraj" also means region/county/locality, and "krajina" means country as in countryside. I always interpreted Ukrajina (Ukraine) to be a combination of the preposition "u", meaning roughly "at", and "krajina" to make make something like "at where the countryside starts" (although if declined properly would be "u krajiny"). For the record, Czechs don't normally use the word "kraj" to mean "edge", instead using "okraj" or "hrana".

On a related note, while a learning a slavic language it was fun to gain insight into names/words I had previously known but not understood, like Chernobyl (černý is black, bílý is white, or byl is the 3rd sing. masc. past tense of "to be" (never did figure that one all the way out)), Belarus (White Rus(sia)), Stalin/Leningrad (hrad is castle (Russian Gs become Hs in Czech)) and many more.

[mic0]

For a secondary perspective, in Czech, "kraj" also means region/county/locality, and "krajina" means country as in countryside. I always interpreted Ukrajina (Ukraine) to be a combination of the preposition "u", meaning roughly "at", and "krajina" to make make something like "at where the countryside starts" (although if declined properly would be "u krajiny"). For the record, Czechs don't normally use the word "kraj" to mean "edge", instead using "okraj" or "hrana".

On a related note, while a learning a slavic language it was fun to gain insight into names/words I had previously known but not understood, like Chernobyl (černý is black, bílý is white, or byl is the 3rd sing. masc. past tense of "to be" (never did figure that one all the way out)), Belarus (White Rus(sia)), Stalin/Leningrad (hrad is castle (Russian Gs become Hs in Czech)) and many more.

Okay, this is a super random question, but do you know why (or have a theory as to why) "Czech" is spelled with a "Cz" in English? We have "Ch" in words like "church," and in Russian it is spelled with the letter corresponding to "ch."

[Katya]

For a secondary perspective, in Czech, "kraj" also means region/county/locality, and "krajina" means country as in countryside. I always interpreted Ukrajina (Ukraine) to be a combination of the preposition "u", meaning roughly "at", and "krajina" to make make something like "at where the countryside starts" (although if declined properly would be "u krajiny"). For the record, Czechs don't normally use the word "kraj" to mean "edge", instead using "okraj" or "hrana".

On a related note, while a learning a slavic language it was fun to gain insight into names/words I had previously known but not understood, like Chernobyl (černý is black, bílý is white, or byl is the 3rd sing. masc. past tense of "to be" (never did figure that one all the way out)), Belarus (White Rus(sia)), Stalin/Leningrad (hrad is castle (Russian Gs become Hs in Czech)) and many more.

Okay, this is a super random question, but do you know why (or have a theory as to why) "Czech" is spelled with a "Cz" in English? We have "Ch" in words like "church," and in Russian it is spelled with the letter corresponding to "ch."

According to the OED, it's the Polish spelling. Earlier spellings include Tschechi (1841), Tshekh (1850), and Tsekh (1879).

So, when in doubt, borrow from Polish.

[Yarjka]

Chernobyl (černý is black, bílý is white, or byl is the 3rd sing. masc. past tense of "to be" (never did figure that one all the way out))

Actually, it's neither "white" nor "to be", but rather "stalk" (byllia in Ukrainian; bylinka in Russian). Chernobyl' literally means "black stalk", but is also the common name for a particular plant (called mugwort in English).

[Yarjka]

Okay, this is a super random question, but do you know why (or have a theory as to why) "Czech" is spelled with a "Cz" in English? We have "Ch" in words like "church," and in Russian it is spelled with the letter corresponding to "ch."

According to the OED, it's the Polish spelling. Earlier spellings include Tschechi (1841), Tshekh (1850), and Tsekh (1879).

So, when in doubt, borrow from Polish.

Of some connection to this: compare the English spelling of Anton Chekhov with the Polish spelling of Anton Czechow. There you see how the 'cz' makes the 'ch' sound, and the 'ch' makes the 'kh' sound (but English speakers tend to just do a 'k' sound since we don't like to irritate our throats).

[mic0]

Okay, this is a super random question, but do you know why (or have a theory as to why) "Czech" is spelled with a "Cz" in English? We have "Ch" in words like "church," and in Russian it is spelled with the letter corresponding to "ch."

According to the OED, it's the Polish spelling. Earlier spellings include Tschechi (1841), Tshekh (1850), and Tsekh (1879).

So, when in doubt, borrow from Polish.

Of some connection to this: compare the English spelling of Anton Chekhov with the Polish spelling of Anton Czechow. There you see how the 'cz' makes the 'ch' sound, and the 'ch' makes the 'kh' sound (but English speakers tend to just do a 'k' sound since we don't like to irritate our throats).

Ahhhh-hah! So in Polish they have an orthographic distinction between "cz" and "ch." Interesting. Thanks both of you. Also, Yarjka, I think "since we don't like to irritate our throats" is my new favorite justification for why languages have different sounds.

[OptimusPrime]

Actually, it's neither "white" nor "to be", but rather "stalk" (byllia in Ukrainian; bylinka in Russian). Chernobyl' literally means "black stalk", but is also the common name for a particular plant (called mugwort in English).

Ah, interesting, thanks for clearing that up. Bylina and bylinka (diminutive) are also used in Czech for "plant" or "herb", but I never made that connection before, even after lots of cups of bylinkový čaj.

Of some connection to this: compare the English spelling of Anton Chekhov with the Polish spelling of Anton Czechow. There you see how the 'cz' makes the 'ch' sound, and the 'ch' makes the 'kh' sound (but English speakers tend to just do a 'k' sound since we don't like to irritate our throats).

Yeah the spelling of many Czech names in English is irregular due to language transfers. Prague in Czech is "Praha" ("Praga" in most other Slavic languages). Czech has a much more efficient writing system than Polish, but harder for keyboards. Instead of digraphs they use diacritics, for instance, the English "ch" sound is made with č in Czech, but cz in Polish. Same for š (sz) and probably ž and ř (although the Poles don't pronounce this correctly like the Czechs still do). You'll see lots of American names with these diacritics dropped off, like Cerny (Černý, or "black") or Kuchar (Kuchář, or "cook") that people say completely wrong.

Anyway, what this means is that "Czech" in Czech would be "Čech", where "ch" is the only Czech digraph, corresponding to the "kh" or Cyrillic "х" (and if it's irritating your throat, you're doing it wrong, it should be like making a wind sound.) Basically it's just another sign that the Slavs got to writing down their language too late and never unified on even a character set, much less a common spelling.

[Yarjka]

if it's irritating your throat, you're doing it wrong, it should be like making a wind sound.

Nah, you've just built up an immunity.

[Portia]

#resurrectinglentthreads

I always struggled with the pronunciation of Franz Liszt for similar reasons. It LOOKS like it wants to be Lisht. If it's List, spell it List!

[Dead Cat]

I pronounce it "Fliszt."

[Yarjka]

#resurrectinglentthreads

I always struggled with the pronunciation of Franz Liszt for similar reasons. It LOOKS like it wants to be Lisht. If it's List, spell it List!

Hungarian orthography is a bit bizarre. The 's' symbol stands for the 'sh' sound, and the 'sz' symbol stands for the 's' sound. Confusing? Yes. But loads of fun.

Any mention of Hungarian makes me think of Monty Python.

[Digit]

My calculus III professor's name was Przemyslaw Bogacki. He said he'd just go by Doctor B.

[Yarjka]

My calculus III professor's name was Przemyslaw Bogacki. He said he'd just go by Doctor B.

Reminds me of Louis Szekely, who decided to go by Louis C.K. to make it easier for everyone. (Again, Hungarian: 'sz' = 's', 'ly' = 'y' ... crazy Hungarians).

[Katya]

My calculus III professor's name was Przemyslaw Bogacki. He said he'd just go by Doctor B.

Reminds me of Louis Szekely, who decided to go by Louis C.K. to make it easier for everyone. (Again, Hungarian: 'sz' = 's', 'ly' = 'y' ... crazy Hungarians).

Oh, but the "ly" = "y" bit isn't too bad if you've studied Russian, because the "y" acts like a soft sign, so the "l" is just super-palatalized into sounding like a "y."