#73267 - Trans sibling

[TheBlackSheep]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/73267/

This isn't meant to be a Hate Board post. I have almost nothing negative to say about the answer Stego Lily gave. Some of this is, admittedly, due to things going on in my life, but my good lord, what the hell.

I'm going to use the pronoun ze throughout this answer. I hardly ever do this, but I do not know if the 13-year-old in question would find it liberating, overwhelming, or some other emotion to be referred to using male pronouns, and I'm just not going to refer to zer using female pronouns because I don't know how ze feels about that, either. Ze/zer are genderless pronouns that some people in the trans community choose.

Here's the thing, GirlyGirl: Your sibling is not an idiot; your sibling is a 13-year-old child. Unless you have ever, for one single day, felt that something as central to your identity as your sex might be wrong and then been proven mistaken, you absolutely cannot assume that your sibling is wrong. How incredibly invalidating. What you are saying is that either your sibling cannot be trusted to know what the central tenets of zerself are or you hate what zer is so much that you cannot even acknowledge it. Another fact about this situation is that, at 13, your sibling is an adolescent. Nobody that old, who has been forced to go through puberty in a body that they do not feel belongs to them, who has had to deal with extreme dysphoria as they watched body parts sprout from nowhere that they can neither recognize nor identify with, nobody with these experiences is mistaken about their trans identity if they have identified one. There is a phase two-year-olds go through where they think everything is theirs. There is a phase many first graders go through where they become extremely bossy. There is a phase many young adolescents go through where they believe they are adults while they still make many child-level choices. But THERE IS NO TRANS PHASE. Your sibling identifies with a masculine gender. This is who ze is. This will never change, regardless if ze ever seeks surgery (many people do not, even when they do go on to identify as the gender that is stereotypically opposite their sex). If ze does not come out to you and your family, it does not mean you did something right. It means that ze feared your rejection that much and it means that your family's representation of love and acceptance was a lie. A counterfeit. What an incredible shame that would be. That is not why we have families or any relationships at all. And while I do not know anything about your relationship with God, I am loathe to accept that any loving creator would send you coded messages in prejudiced thoughts meaning that you should not trust your sibling's knowledge of who ze is.

Also, gender identity and sexual preference have nothing to do with each other. Nothing nada zip zilch. Stop being comforted by the fact that ze is attracted to boys. Stop being comforted by the fact that ze does not want surgery. Realize who your sibling is and accept it or leave zer alone.

You cannot both love your sibling and be judgmental toward zer. You cannot both have zer over because you say you love zer while placing all kinds of requirements on zer in order to be there. It does not compute. What you are saying is that you do not love zer. It is not only extreme rejection that causes harm to trans people. Often the harm is done in much more insidious, subtle ways. I only react this strongly because I am tired of religious zeal being an acceptable excuse for intolerance of people that churchgoing folk supposedly love. Your sibling is 13. Being 13 is excruciating without being trans. Ze needs love and support. Leave your judgment at the door or don't interact with zer. You will do so much more harm than good.

If something is a struggle to someone, IT IS REAL. Assuming anything else is invalidating and without love.

And GirlyGirl, I know you asked not to be chastised for reading that journal because you know it is wrong. It is fairly hypocritical to transgress and then ask how to deal with another's transgression when they have not even transgressed. If you feel that you are being punished with the knowledge that your sibling is trans, then perhaps you need a few more lessons in empathy, as you seem unable or unwilling to consider what torment ze is experiencing with zer own identity in a family that will obviously not accept zer.

Stego Lily, I appreciated that you took on this question, and I appreciated that you emphasized that the sister should not reject the trans sibling. I appreciated that you emphasized that close familial relationships will be so important to zer. I wish you had gone further. I understand how important being PC and empathetic is while you write for the Board so that readers will see what you have to say instead of rejecting the message out of hand. In this case somebody has to wake her up. She asked for your advice and I wish you had been more forceful.

And hey, 13-year-old, if by some miracle you are out there, it does get better. If you email me we can talk. byublacksheep at gmail dot com.

[Whistler]

yeah, GirlyGirl has some major transphobia. Since you brought it up though, I admit I don't understand why God would give some people this trial (uggh, and I know that just by seeing trans identity as a trial I'm revealing my own transphobia. I'm happy to accommodate trans people and refer to them however they'd like, but I still have a hard time understanding).

[Imogen]

I love you so, BlackSheep. I have a dear, dear friend who is trans. She was a Vietnam Vet and has children from her former life, but is now living happily as an awesome woman. She faced a lot of rejection from her family, and they still don't fully accept her. But I do, and I know she appreciates it. I just love her and her courage to live in my hometown as an obviously trans-woman.

I don't face what GirlyGirl is facing with her sister, but when I first figured out my oldest brother was gay I was DEVASTATED. I cried about it for days. But, as I got older, I realized that my brother was my brother, and I loved him no matter what. By the time he came out to me when I was 15 it was such a non-event, and I am so glad God helped guide me to true, unconditional love for him and my friend Mari. My life has been so special because of it, and I hope Girly Girl doesn't lose the chance to have a really special relationship with her sibling over something as...fluid as gender. Your sibling may decide to just dress in a more "tomboyish" way and not have surgery and date men. Your sibling may decide to date men and present in a more "feminine" way when it suits them. Your sibling may decide not to date anyone ever because they'd rather be single for any number of reasons! Who knows?! Just love your sibling, no matter what.

[UnluckyStuntman]

This article just popped up in my RSS feed a few minutes ago and I thought some of you would enjoy it:

http://bitchmagazine.org/post/believe-m ... ransgender

Treating a trans person's experience as being "just a phase" is... gross. It makes my soul hurt. Basically, ditto to everything TBS and Imogen have already said. And Whistler, though I disagree with your trial-by-God premise, props for being upfront about your potential bias. At least you know you have one.

[mic0]

That link doesn't work, my Stunman friend. :\

[Whistler]

it should work if you copy-paste the whole thing. For some reason the forum had a hard time with the dash in the URL.

[Whistler]

ALSO while we are on the topic you should try out Dys4ia, a game about one trans woman's feelings as she starts hormone therapy. http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=1515

edit: I should warn you there is a boob minigame but it is in the spirit of conveying their weird new sensitivity, and it is pretty abstract.

[mic0]

Oh, yup that works. Thanks! And this is all very interesting.

[Portia]

Those who have more irons in this fire: could it be possible that she is lashing out and that her gender identity will develop as she goes through puberty, and that she is primarily fighting restrictive LDS gender roles and wanting to adopt the power that comes from being male within the church?

I have to admit, I "struggle," as the current annoying parlance is, as a cis straight woman sometimes. It's hard not to feel that women are adopting a male identity to take advantage of male privilege. It kinda feels like they went against the "team," that it is anti-feminist to reject your female-ness. Maybe it's not ideal to feel this way, but I do. Help me understand.

[Emiliana]

It's hard not to feel that women are adopting a male identity to take advantage of male privilege. It kinda feels like they went against the "team," that it is anti-feminist to reject your female-ness. Maybe it's not ideal to feel this way, but I do. Help me understand.

I confess I was really surprised by this paragraph. There is a fairly well-known argument against homosexuality as a "choice": why would someone choose a "lifestyle" that they know will cause them to be bullied or rejected? I think the same thing here, but even more so. Trans/non-cis folks are some of the most heavily discriminated against in our society. I don't see that a female who presents as a man is going to be able to take advantage of "male privilege" to any significant degree.

But I appreciate the way you expressed yourself. "Help me understand," when genuine (which I think it is here) is a great way of overcoming your own prejudices. You rock.

[Stego Lily]

TBS: honestly, the entire time I was writing that answer I kept wondering what you would think of it. Thank you so much for your feedback. This was a really hard question to answer and it means a lot that it's sparked this much discussion.

[TheBlackSheep]

TBS: honestly, the entire time I was writing that answer I kept wondering what you would think of it. Thank you so much for your feedback. This was a really hard question to answer and it means a lot that it's sparked this much discussion.

That is incredibly flattering. I was very pleased that you had written a response, and I agreed wholeheartedly with the feedback. Like I say, I completely understand wanting to make your message hear-able, as that was my number one goal while writing, and it still is, to some extent. And I'm only beginning to take my own feedback now, some years after graduating, so it probably isn't the fairest feedback to give. The question frustrated me. I know how hard and intimidating these answers are, so bravo. And thank you so much for what you said.

[TheBlackSheep]

Those who have more irons in this fire: could it be possible that she is lashing out and that her gender identity will develop as she goes through puberty, and that she is primarily fighting restrictive LDS gender roles and wanting to adopt the power that comes from being male within the church?

From where I sit, there are many easier ways to do this than to fool yourself into accepting a trans identity. Being gay is one thing; being trans is a whole different layer of unacceptability in Mormon culture. And from what I understand from trans people I know, there is nothing about the experience that is possible to confuse with anything else once you have put your finger on what is going on. You may not understand why you are so uncomfortable in your body, but once you figure out that your gender does not match your sex, it is obvious. And, as Emiliana said, nothing about being trans resembles a choice. No poor 13-year-old Mormon kid would choose it. Also, I don't think that many 13-year-olds are insightfully aware enough of their feelings of being controlled by the patriarchy to even begin to make that choice.

The boyfriend just summed my point up: "Being trans does not give you power." I agree; nothing is in it for this kid.

I have to admit, I "struggle," as the current annoying parlance is, as a cis straight woman sometimes. It's hard not to feel that women are adopting a male identity to take advantage of male privilege. It kinda feels like they went against the "team," that it is anti-feminist to reject your female-ness. Maybe it's not ideal to feel this way, but I do. Help me understand.

I can see what you are saying, but it is not anti-feminist to identify as masculine if that is what your gender is. Ze is not abandoning the team; ze was never on the team.

[Portia]

Thanks, Em and TBS. I see your points better now.

Being trans may not give one power, but cross-dressing certainly can and has. Shakespeare played with this in a lot of interesting ways. I believe he wrote characters who were what we would consider gay/lesbian/bi, and even my namesake put on male duds to go be an awesome lawyer, an option closed to her at the time if she dressed in female clothing. But maybe cross-dressing is more of a behavior than an identity: I think the text is pretty clear that Portia is a straight cis woman, like myself.

It's entirely possible that cis women, straight and gay, and trans women as well, are all second-class in the church. It does seem that the power is held by cis straight men, and so I can see how the young woman (trans boy? she's certainly not a man at 13) is not "gaining" by her feelings, although the argument still bothers me, as it is too deterministic. I do think that this wild crazy world of sex/gender identity/behavior does involve choice, and that that's beautiful. I can go choose to make out with a woman if I wanted to, though I likely wouldn't and never have. I don't feel like I was, like, destined to want to have sex with dudes or present as a woman, and I guess I can imagine my me-ness in plenty of different ways. I'm not the most empathetic person though, and not known for my bleeding heart or sensitivity, in general. I would guess that the sister is about 17, and I was where she was once, snoopy and judgmental and uptight. So I think non-conformists can struggle with the non-conformists in any system, which is obvious by the fact that the family is weirdly/harmfully obsessed with her presenting as a feminine princessy girl, which sorry, is not gender, but culture. That's patriarchal oppression right there, and I started at high school at 13: old enough to be like "yeah, this b.s. about What Girls Do and What Boys Do is nonsense. Let's climb trees."

I don't see any way to square an acceptance of transgender identities with the Family Proclamation as it stands. Any mainstream Mormon's going to believe that gender is an eternal, immutable, matches-chromosome characteristic. In fact, I was surprise that the Board answer wasn't more ... harsh than it was. Not that that necessarily even matters to you, TBS, but it's definitely a glaring red light in improving the lot of trans folks in the church.

[Stego Lily]

I don't see any way to square an acceptance of transgender identities with the Family Proclamation as it stands. Any mainstream Mormon's going to believe that gender is an eternal, immutable, matches-chromosome characteristic. In fact, I was surprise that the Board answer wasn't more ... harsh than it was. Not that that necessarily even matters to you, TBS, but it's definitely a glaring red light in improving the lot of trans folks in the church.

I don't know. I'm a fairly mainstream member of the Church, but I think the way the Proclamation is worded leaves some wiggle room. It states that "gender is an essential characteristic of premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." No mention of chromosomes or anatomy in there anywhere. The way I interpret it, your spirit has a gender expression, and that is going to stay the same through eternity. I don't think that necessarily excludes the possibility that in mortality, your body's sex might not match your spirt's gender.

I mean, I know 99% of active church members would probably disagree with me on this, so it still doesn't say a lot for the situation of trans folk in the Church. But I appreciate the fact that there's a loophole there, which may widen in the future. I'm optimistic.

[SmurfBlueSnuggie]

I don't know. I'm a fairly mainstream member of the Church, but I think the way the Proclamation is worded leaves some wiggle room. It states that "gender is an essential characteristic of premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." No mention of chromosomes or anatomy in there anywhere. The way I interpret it, your spirit has a gender expression, and that is going to stay the same through eternity. I don't think that necessarily excludes the possibility that in mortality, your body's sex might not match your spirt's gender.

I really like that interpretation, Stego Lily. Also, I just want to say I think you take on some intense questions and give excellent answers.

I think the parents are being silly, trying to force her to be a super girly girl. I don't see why girls can't be more into sports and dislike dresses. I don't see why boys can't learn to dance and care about their appearance. Gender stereotypes make the gender/sex/attraction issues even messier. Even if every single person in this world were cis gendered and heterosexual, I think gender stereotypes are a problem. Heck, my passion in junior high and high school was Tae Kwon Do, and my younger brother has spent 8 years in musical theater. Gender stereotypes hurt everyone, especially those who struggle with their gender identity and sexual orientation.

I didn't understand one part of the situation, and would love some insights. Ze (I hope I'm using these right, sorry if I'm not) identifies as male, is in a female body, and is attracted to males. So ze is trans gay? What sorts of things would clue zer into the fact that ze is trans? I wasn't immediately comfortable with my female body as it began to develop. I actually hated the fact that I was growing breasts. I was humiliated when I actually had to purchase my first bra. But I am most certainly female. I identify as a woman and am happy with my woman's body. I understand that trans-sexuality isn't a phase. It's not a choice most people would willingly make, either. However, I don't understand how a 13 year old can be that sure of their sexuality. Maybe this is my delayed awareness showing through. I didn't have a casual crush until I was 16.

Please don't think I'm saying ze is wrong about zerself. I just do not understand how one would discover they are trans-sexual.

[Portia]

Yeah, I've had to wonder what people mean when they talk about, say, 13-year-olds' orientation. I didn't have any desire for sex til 18, so I just don't think that's really set til puberty is complete.

And SBS, yes, if the 13 year old as an adult considers werfself a gay man, I understand that's how one should treat werf. However, if other gay men prefer a cos gay man with male anatomy, or straight men prefer a gender that matches her birth sex, I wouldn't fault them, personally. I've read enough Savage Love to know that gay & trans men aren't necessarily on the same page.

That's an interesting take, SL. Have you ever shared this view IRL? What was the response?

Also, there's a subheading about feminist uneasiness with trans folks on Wikipedia. Looks like a second wave/third wave deal, to simplify. So I'm at least not ALONE in my initial worries.

[TheBlackSheep]

I'm going to be back later today, promise. I have appointments all this morning but I have a lot to say.

[Stego Lily]

That's an interesting take, SL. Have you ever shared this view IRL? What was the response?

Nope, never shared it IRL. Someday.

[mic0]

I don't know. I'm a fairly mainstream member of the Church, but I think the way the Proclamation is worded leaves some wiggle room. It states that "gender is an essential characteristic of premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." No mention of chromosomes or anatomy in there anywhere. The way I interpret it, your spirit has a gender expression, and that is going to stay the same through eternity. I don't think that necessarily excludes the possibility that in mortality, your body's sex might not match your spirt's gender.

Slightly tangential, but my freshman year at BYU (in fact my very first semester) I took a (really great) sociology class. One day we talked about sex versus gender, and during the discussion my TBM mind went straight to the Proclamation. So, after class I sought him out and asked what he thought about that line, and if he knew about any doctrine about sex versus gender. I don't remember much, but he kind of hemmed and hawed and told me more about how sex and gender are quite different, and how things could not line up perfectly all the time. I could tell he was uncomfortable with the question, but it seemed like he very much agreed with the kind of explanation Stego Lily suggested in the quoted bit above. Interesting stuff.