Rant of the Day

[mic0]

There are a lot of things I dislike, and some I like. I'm coming from a different perspective than Portia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she works as a technical writer. I work as an "NLP Resercher/Developer." I'm on the programming team even though really I'm not a programmer and my strengths lie in linguistic research and trying to find ways to apply that to NLP problems/development. I like the programmers, but then I have a completely different relationship with them than a technical writer would. The tech writers at my company are very tightly involved with the programmers and when it's going good, it's all good, and when it's going bad, it's just the worst for them. Also I wouldn't call the programmers where I work "brogrammers." They are older in their 30s or 40s and are for the most part interested in women programming, which is great and means they are often willing to help me learn things.

I will definitely agree with the annoying use of buzzwords. Especially as someone on the developing side of things, it is really weird to see how the marketing people and CEOs talk about our work versus how I see it. Like, really? We are selling this? We barely have a product. They also have these high hopes for NLP despite not hiring or particularly looking for people with computational linguistics backgrounds, but that is extremely specific to my situation. Similarly, I don't like how "autonomous" we are all supposed to be -- it makes it very difficult to determine what the line of command is, who is responsible for what, etc.

That's just a couple things. Unfortunately for you, I just ranted about some of this so I don't have a lot in me right now. If you have any specific questions email/message/ask me and I can try to help you get a better idea about things.

[Portia]

There are a lot of things I dislike, and some I like. I'm coming from a different perspective than Portia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she works as a technical writer. I work as an "NLP Resercher/Developer." I'm on the programming team even though really I'm not a programmer and my strengths lie in linguistic research and trying to find ways to apply that to NLP problems/development. I like the programmers, but then I have a completely different relationship with them than a technical writer would. The tech writers at my company are very tightly involved with the programmers and when it's going good, it's all good, and when it's going bad, it's just the worst for them. Also I wouldn't call the programmers where I work "brogrammers." They are older in their 30s or 40s and are for the most part interested in women programming, which is great and means they are often willing to help me learn things.

I will definitely agree with the annoying use of buzzwords. Especially as someone on the developing side of things, it is really weird to see how the marketing people and CEOs talk about our work versus how I see it. Like, really? We are selling this? We barely have a product. They also have these high hopes for NLP despite not hiring or particularly looking for people with computational linguistics backgrounds, but that is extremely specific to my situation. Similarly, I don't like how "autonomous" we are all supposed to be -- it makes it very difficult to determine what the line of command is, who is responsible for what, etc.

That's just a couple things. Unfortunately for you, I just ranted about some of this so I don't have a lot in me right now. If you have any specific questions email/message/ask me and I can try to help you get a better idea about things.

Thanks for letting me jump in. Didn't want to speak for you, and was excited to hear your perspective.

You are SPOT ON with your assessment, both of tech writing and marketing roles!

When it's a good fit with your development team, all is well, although you know they're making double what you do. But not too stressful and it gets your feet wet in terms of the APIs and thinking about information modeling, which is a good skill for any writer.

I'm currently interviewing for both marketing roles and being recruited for a higher level of tech writer, and OMG YES marketers have to spin b.s. That's probably why I'm well suited to it. B-) I'm definitely a higher-level thinker.

Yeah, both Zed and TBS have had to hear about my experiences with straight-up sex discrimination. Bleargh. (And it's not the "oh, Portia's a leftie feminist" type, it's "her boss told her to take it to H.R. Twice" type.)

If you have any questions about that side of things, Tally, feel free to pass them on!

I expect that with a linguistics background, you're also interested in computational linguistics?

[Tally M.]

I expect that with a linguistics background, you're also interested in computational linguistics?

Yeah. Ideally I'd be going into data analysis, specifically regarding language data, but there's a chance I could end up in query suggestion for search engines

[Portia]

I expect that with a linguistics background, you're also interested in computational linguistics?

Yeah. Ideally I'd be going into data analysis, specifically regarding language data, but there's a chance I could end up in query suggestion for search engines

Hey, cool! My brother is a data analyst. He's an undergrad making a good salary, already! Seems like a solid career path.

He is convinced he needs to attend an Ivy League school for grad school: but that's just my brother for you. :-P

[Portia]

Caveat: People can do whatever they want in their dating life. Pray to Zoroaster, join a kibbutz, take a vow of celibacy, knock yourself out.

So I did a decent job of ignoring General Conference. Besides the new appointees, which makes local and even NPR-level headlines, I don't consider it newsworthy.

But I was curious about this "pray why you're single" idea referenced on the Board. The social facts of single/coupled have been an obsession of mine lately. Believe it or not, the Mormon model isn't the only one. (Fine, that's sarcastic. This is the rants page.)

OH MY GOSH I CANNOT BELIEVE that he'd (God? I guess?) tell a woman to "not interrupt." HAHAHA that has to be the RICHest thing I've ever heard in my nearly 28 years.

Read any study. Men interrupt women all the time. It's so difficult to even get a word in edgewise in the workplace. I can't even imagine having this notion beat into your head of "why you're single."

Over and over and over, in fiction, memoir, and even freaking Twitter, #talkingwhilefemale is this fraught, stressful, judged experience.

Yesterday, at work, we have our weekly postmortem. Apparently I had needed to be "more assertive" in bringing up what I needed. Fine. I made a short list of concerns, read them out. The meeting runner said that people should get off their phones, and pay attention. Oh boy. They were very very very pissed off at the notion of a token woman wanting to be listened to. When the product owner called it a monologue, that was it for me. My mom died on that day three years before; I didn't want to be at their meeting anyway. I left the room crying: so yeah, guess if I'd not "waited my turn" and just talked over the dudes I would be more respected, right?? They interrupt me and don't pay attention.

The men on the other team also have strong personalities, but there are also other women on the team. Everyone can cut in and feel listened to. It helps that that team has better morale in general. Shocking, that not being the only woman around a bunch of mostly Mormon dudes gets you more respect! Not.

There is this one dude who from day 1 has made jokes about me being female. He's quitting, and I'm happy. Still, if they don't move me to another department, I'm going to ask for the new hire to be put on that team.

AS AN EXPERIMENT, I thought about my male associates and love interests.

They. Monologue. All. The. Time.

My boyfriend was droning on for 10 minutes about frankly boring details of his new position. But I didn't whip out my phone. I didn't cut him off. I'm getting fed up with the double standard here.

The idea that women should meekly listen while their men hold court was so self-evidently stupid 100 years ago that women took real risks to acquire legal rights.

Sure, annoying personal habits can impede anyone's dating prospects. Not disputing that. But women are so very very very much more likely to be interrupted and ignored than men, that talks like this perpetuate toxic stereotypes that hurt women WHO AREN'T TRYING TO DATE YOU.

Praise Yahweh/Cthulhu/the Goddess for my one decent coworker who ALWAYS listens to me, always treats my questions as valuable, and never makes me feel like I'm only good for my number on an attractiveness scale. He's married and Mormon (he waited til about age 27, so, yeah), so it's not impossible to treat women decently, just many people choose not to.

He also is a talker. But I think he lacks the arrogance to make it to the top of the tech business. Sigh.

(Edited for multiple rage-induced typos.)

[Tally M.]

Caveat: People can do whatever they want in their dating life. Pray to Zoroaster, join a kibbutz, take a vow of celibacy, knock yourself out.

So I did a decent job of ignoring General Conference. Besides the new appointees, which makes local and even NPR-level headlines, I don't consider it newsworthy.

But I was curious about this "pray why you're single" idea referenced on the Board. The social facts of single/coupled have been an obsession of mine lately. Believe it or not, the Mormon model isn't the only one. (Fine, that's sarcastic. This is the rants page.)

OH MY GOSH I CANNOT BELIEVE that he'd (God? I guess?) tell a woman to "not interrupt." HAHAHA that has to be the RICHest thing I've ever heard in my nearly 28 years.

Read any study. Men interrupt women all the time. It's so difficult to even get a word in edgewise in the workplace. I can't even imagine having this notion beat into your head of "why you're single."

Over and over and over, in fiction, memoir, and even freaking Twitter, #talkingwhilefemale is this fraught, stressful, judged experience.

Yesterday, at work, we have our weekly postmortem. Apparently I had needed to be "more assertive" in bringing up what I needed. Fine. I made a short list of concerns, read them out. The meeting runner said that people should get off their phones, and pay attention. Oh boy. They were very very very pissed off at the notion of a token woman wanting to be listened to. When the product owner called it a monologue, that was it for me. My mom died on that day three years before; I didn't want to be at their meeting anyway. I left the room crying: so yeah, guess if I'd not "waited my turn" and just talked over the dudes I would be more respected, right?? They interrupt me and don't pay attention.

The men on the other team also have strong personalities, but there are also other women on the team. Everyone can cut in and feel listened to. It helps that that team has better morale in general. Shocking, that not being the only woman around a bunch of mostly Mormon dudes gets you more respect! Not.

There is this one dude who from day 1 has made jokes about me being female. He's quitting, and I'm happy. Still, if they don't move me to another department, I'm going to ask for the new hire to be put on that team.

AS AN EXPERIMENT, I thought about my male associates and love interests.

They. Monologue. All. The. Time.

My boyfriend was droning on for 10 minutes about frankly boring details of his new position. But I didn't whip out my phone. I didn't cut him off. I'm getting fed up with the double standard here.

The idea that women should meekly listen while their men hold court was so self-evidently stupid 100 years ago that women took real risks to acquire legal rights.

Sure, annoying personal habits can impede anyone's dating prospects. Not disputing that. But women are so very very very much more likely to be interrupted and ignored than men, that talks like this perpetuate toxic stereotypes that hurt women WHO AREN'T TRYING TO DATE YOU.

Praise Yahweh/Cthulhu/the Goddess for my one decent coworker who ALWAYS listens to me, always treats my questions as valuable, and never makes me feel like I'm only good for my number on an attractiveness scale. He's married and Mormon (he waited til about age 27, so, yeah), so it's not impossible to treat women decently, just many people choose not to.

He also is a talker. But I think he lacks the arrogance to make it to the top of the tech business. Sigh.

(Edited for multiple rage-induced typos.)

I felt like I needed to respond to this.

The point of that talk wasn't that women shouldn't interrupt. The point was very much that everyone can receive specific personal guidance as to how to improve their life. For some people, interruption does severely damage their interpersonal relationships, male or female. It just so happened that the example that was used was from a woman, which isn't to say that more men are told to stop interrupting.

Yes, I get that this is a cultural problem. But this talk shouldn't be seen as trying to reinforce that problem.

[Whistler]

I agree that it's very frustrating when you're constantly being interrupted and you feel like it's not acceptable for you to be as verbally aggressive. I've had the problem where I'll say something, and then someone else will say the same thing but everyone else will listen when that person says it. I know people are more accepting to ideas they've heard before, but that doesn't make it any less irritating!

[Emiliana]

So, after several months of underemployment followed by several more months of total unemployment, it looks like my husband is about to get a job at a college library. This is huge because it's a) full time and b) somewhat in his field!

On the other hand, it's also 6pm to 2am, meaning that on days he works I will probably see him for an hour or less. I've been totally spoiled lately by the fact that he's home all the time, taking care of the dogs, cars, apartment, laundry.... and when I come home from work, he's always there. I might or might have cried quite a bit just now at the thought of both not seeing him much AND about actually having to do housework on top of teaching.

I feel totally selfish for feeling sad about this.

After a ridiculous amount of time dealing with bureaucracy, Marx is starting this job next week! Then a few weeks after that we're most likely going to move! To a real house, with a real kitchen and a real yard!

Again, this is a net positive, but my current stress level is.......not sustainable. I need to figure out how to deal with this.

[Rainbow_connection]

I empathize. My husband is switching jobs starting in a few weeks. The new job is overall much better for his personal development, happiness, and career path. But on the other hand his current job is from home so he's been watching our toddler while he works, so now we have to enroll her in daycare and he won't have time to do any housework during the day. I'm happy for him but not for me. And I think that's ok. It's ok to mourn the loss of the status quo a little bit. We'll all settle into a new rhythm eventually.
And a real house is awesome, but moving definitely sucks. Good luck! Are you able to time it so you can have time off work to move?

[Portia]

I agree that it's very frustrating when you're constantly being interrupted and you feel like it's not acceptable for you to be as verbally aggressive. I've had the problem where I'll say something, and then someone else will say the same thing but everyone else will listen when that person says it. I know people are more accepting to ideas they've heard before, but that doesn't make it any less irritating!

Thanks. I plan on returning to academia, and know that there will still be hurdles as a woman, but I hope there will be fewer.

This article by a physicist-turned-creative writing professor (probably one of the most likely career paths for me considering what I'm being recruited for) really resonated with me!

And of course, I recognize that this incident happened on a day when I was under high stress, but it feels frustrating to not only have any such feelings invalidated by American corporate culture, but for the unspoken assumption that, being female, I'm not "rational" enough for the field.

[Portia]

I felt like I needed to respond to this.

The point of that talk wasn't that women shouldn't interrupt. The point was very much that everyone can receive specific personal guidance as to how to improve their life. For some people, interruption does severely damage their interpersonal relationships, male or female. It just so happened that the example that was used was from a woman, which isn't to say that more men are told to stop interrupting.

Yes, I get that this is a cultural problem. But this talk shouldn't be seen as trying to reinforce that problem.

There are three potentially problematic aspects of two different, but overlapping, magisteria when it comes to Talks About Single People and Talks About Women, in my view:

• Shaming unmarried people
  Reinforcing gendered stereotypes
  Policing women's speech and behavior

1) I find the repeated hammering on single people to get married to be counterproductive, but honestly, it doesn't personally affect me that much. Not only have I not been single since I was 17, I have dated for the past decade to, among other goals, "have a good time" and don't have regrets about waiting til almost-if-not 30 to tie the knot. It was the right choice for me, and I know I'll have a more stable, fulfilling, and long-lasting relationship this way rather than having jumped the gun when I was young and nuts. Whether cautionary or inspirational tale, I have my own life to live, and fortunately, I'm not marrying within the Church and introducing that conflict. I maintained an open mind on religious differences for a long, long time, but have gotten to the point of thinking that would be the last stressor I need, and don't fault you, Tally, or anyone else for agreeing with me on that principle.

I think this is a hard point to find middle ground on: either you agree with this worldview (finding yourself in your twenties THEN settling down, if desired), or you don't. I do think that until the LDS culture recognizes the reality that the "marriageable" men are jumping ship in droves, people with personalities very unlike mine will needlessly suffer.

2) I think that Lawrence's examples reinforced certain stereotypes—the man who swears like a sailor, the woman who is too headstrong and shrewish—and I do find these to be tiresome. While perhaps not the thesis, from a small but I assume representative Googling of his past speeches, I think that he sees the world in shades of black and white with little grey.

Considering the hard data on a gaping sex ratio imbalance, not to mention pretty damn grim employment prospects for ALL young people, I think that compassion and nuance is warranted when addressing young Mormon people.

I think that working against gendered stereotypes is something two opposing camps can find middle ground on—it could help the painfully shy and introverted men, the outspoken and independent women, etc., regardless of where they stand as far as the Church goes. Someone who is a practicing Mormon whose views on this matter delight me daily is Shannon Hale. She is very passionate about opening up opportunities for her daughters AND sons and not conforming to stereotypes in her writing or marketing.

3) As a linguist, Tally, you might be interested in this and related articles about policing women's literal voices/ways of speaking.

The third point is, actually, the most frustrating to me. While not exclusive to the Mormon sphere (hello Twitter/reddit/my tech company), it's particularly pronounced in the religion and in areas influenced by its norms.

I struggle with the notion that women were told to (as I understand it) "speak up more." But of course, when you are expressly forbidden from having any institutional authority — and face severe consequences for seeking such — I think that can frankly lead a woman to something resembling a nervous breakdown.

After graduating, I had gone back and forth on the question of how involved to be in the Church. My boyfriend recognized the high cost to my mental stability that these messages invariably resulted in. So I removed myself, and although carving your own role in life is confusing and scary, it has its rewards.

I at least have the option of advancing within my company, although it may be difficult.

Obviously, I don't see these men as inspired leaders in the same way you do, but that doesn't mean that I'm seeking to make ad hominem attacks against them or you. I do, however, feel passionately about sexist norms whose tentacles invade aspects of my lived life. That, to me anyway, is the "point" of questioning insidious ideas about how women should conduct their romantic, professional, and even spiritual lives.

[Emiliana]

I empathize. My husband is switching jobs starting in a few weeks. The new job is overall much better for his personal development, happiness, and career path. But on the other hand his current job is from home so he's been watching our toddler while he works, so now we have to enroll her in daycare and he won't have time to do any housework during the day. I'm happy for him but not for me. And I think that's ok. It's ok to mourn the loss of the status quo a little bit. We'll all settle into a new rhythm eventually.
And a real house is awesome, but moving definitely sucks. Good luck! Are you able to time it so you can have time off work to move?

"Happy for him but not for me" -- That is a helpful way of looking at things! And you're right, we will get settled in after awhile... Best of luck to y'all in all your changes, also.

[Whistler]

I agree that it's very frustrating when you're constantly being interrupted and you feel like it's not acceptable for you to be as verbally aggressive. I've had the problem where I'll say something, and then someone else will say the same thing but everyone else will listen when that person says it. I know people are more accepting to ideas they've heard before, but that doesn't make it any less irritating!

Thanks. I plan on returning to academia, and know that there will still be hurdles as a woman, but I hope there will be fewer.

This article by a physicist-turned-creative writing professor (probably one of the most likely career paths for me considering what I'm being recruited for) really resonated with me!

And of course, I recognize that this incident happened on a day when I was under high stress, but it feels frustrating to not only have any such feelings invalidated by American corporate culture, but for the unspoken assumption that, being female, I'm not "rational" enough for the field.

yes, I saw that article! It was funny to me, because I remember thinking nerd culture was really cool as a teenager (I still remember thinking the "codito ergo sum" shirt on an early thinkgeek was funny, which translates to "I code therefore I am," which was practically referenced in the article). But I agree overall that associating coding with nerd culture only helps other nerds feel included, and coding is an art that everyone feels is within their scope, like writing a letter or drawing stick figures.

[Emiliana]

I'm so tired I want to cry, and it's only Tuesday.

[Shrinky Dink]

You know the catch when you need a job, but they want you to have experience before they give you the job? Well, my husband and I are stuck where we need an apartment, but to get the apartment, we need jobs. If we want jobs, we kind of need to be living in the city we're looking at and we need an apartment. Now, I've got a job, but it might not be enough to afford an apartment. So I'm stuck couch surfing while I'm working and looking for another job that will pay better, but a better paying job will probably require experience that i don't really have.

(sorry for any typos. I'm writing this on my phone, I'll correct mistakes later when I'm on a computer)

[yayfulness]

There are teenagers - soon to be adults - in Iraq and Afghanistan who literally do not know what it is like to live in a country that is not a war zone. That ought to terrify all of us.

And speaking of being terrified, I am terrified by the indiscriminate hate I have seen throughout the internet. That indiscriminate hate, especially when applied in foreign policy, is the single biggest recruiting tool Daesh has ever had.

[TheBlackSheep]

I am so glad I went to Salt Lake this weekend. I really needed to be at the rally/whatever we are calling it, and thanks to everyone who hung out with me.

That being said, sitting at a dead stop between Fillmore and Beaver for two full hours was not what I had in mind. I know it was snowing, you guys, but really? Really? We needed to get in no fewer than 10 accidents that I observed that impacted traffic?

It should never, ever, ever take over seven hours to get from Salt Lake City to Beaver.

[Whistler]

[TheBlackSheep]

But I survived!

I then went looking for a certain mental health answer I wrote for the Board and I found this: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/81832/

Holy denial, Batman. But it's over.

[Emiliana]

Holy denial, Batman.

Eesh. Yeah.