A thought-provoking post from BCC

Portia · Post by **Portia** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:10 am

I thought this paragraph was particularly interesting, especially in light of some of our recent debates (civil though they may be)

As a product of an academic, critical background, I am deeply suspicious of certainty, particularly my own. At least some of the worldâ€™s great atrocities have been committed by people certain of their cause, their fight, the justice of their acts, and their God. On a smaller scale, I knew those letters [to the Daily Universe] were flawed just as certainly as their authors knew the original letter was flawed. We all three together condemned an other, because we each were completely right. As a result, we were all wrong.

Just something to think about. Full article here.

(For those without a Book of Mormon background, I think you can catch the drift.)

Portia · Post by **Portia** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:20 am

Also, lest this degenerate into accusations of moral relativism [edit: I had "relativity," probably because I had earlier been discussing how many orders of magnitude we are away from getting to 0.75c], I post these comments from later in the thread:

Isnâ€™t certainty regarding the correctness of oneâ€™s actions considered a hallmark of righteousness? Shouldnâ€™t we strive for this kind of clarity in our lives?

Comment by Peter LLC

Peter,
You raise a good point. To some degree we are to be confident that we are doing the Lordâ€™s will. My response is that if we feel compelled to â€œset someone straightâ€ (as salt h2o put it), perhaps we should give those promptings the same scrutiny Nephi gave his regarding Laban. There is a kind of Zoramite pride in assuming that I happen to be the particular vessel through which God expresses his wrath regarding something I care about.

Comment by John C.

I know I have laughed at the apparent imbecility of many a DU letter, etc. in my life--but I think maybe feeling this need to feel "smarter" or "more informed" than others isn't so great either. In a forum where opinions are often put forward, and quite forcefully, just thought it could be something worth thinking about.

(Police Beat however, will always be fair game for a good finger-pointing. "Suspicious character," indeed. :) )

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:22 pm

you are so wrong.

Cognoscente · Post by **Cognoscente** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:31 pm

Letters from the DU are the strongest argument I have against BYU and "Utah Mormon" culture. I know that's an over-generalization, stereotyping, etc. But, every time I read those damn things I cringe inside at the stubborn, angry, even vicious judgment against every perceived social imperfection.

Yeah, I swore. Wanna make somethin' of it?

Nanti-SARRMM · Post by **Nanti-SARRMM** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:30 pm

Cognoscente wrote: Yeah, I swore. Wanna make somethin' of it?

Yes, I shall write* the Daily Universe exclaiming my disbelief that church members and BYU students are capable such language and should be reported to the honor code office, launching a storm of criticism and defense remarks from students all around.

*Please read the tiny print where it clearly displays the word not in front of write. Thank you.

Katya · Post by **Katya** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:42 am

Cognoscente wrote:Letters from the DU are the strongest argument I have against BYU and "Utah Mormon" culture.

70% of BYU students are from outside of Utah. So, I agree, I hate those judgmental, closed-minded non-Utah Mormons, too.

Cognoscente · Post by **Cognoscente** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:39 pm

I should have said, "What some might call the 'Utah Mormon' affectation." You know what I mean.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:31 pm

but are 70% of the people writing letters from outside of utah?

sounds like a good board question to me...!

Katya · Post by **Katya** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:58 am

Cognoscente wrote: I should have said, "What some might call the 'Utah Mormon' affectation." You know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. But I've reached the limits of my patience in letting a denotation which does refer to me stand for negative connotations which don't.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:11 am

Cognoscente wrote:Yeah, I swore. Wanna make somethin' of it?

Get over yourself, Coggers

Benvolio · Post by **Benvolio** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:18 am

Cognoscente wrote:Letters from the DU are the strongest argument I have against BYU and "Utah Mormon" culture. I know that's an over-generalization, stereotyping, etc. But, every time I read those damn things I cringe inside at the stubborn, angry, even vicious judgment against every perceived social imperfection.

If you went to school somewhere else you would see the same unenlightened drivel in the school newspapers. When I was at Vanderbilt the letters to the editor section of the school newspaper was just as bad. The only difference was that instead of Church- and Honor Code-related rants, Vandy students complained about frats and/or Greek life, with plenty of the same self-righteousness and judgmental traits of the Daily Universe letters. I actually had a discussion about this very subject with my classmates my first year, since almost all of them came from other schools, and they all said it was the same where they went to undergrad. So it's not unique to BYU or Utah. More's the pity.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:03 pm

ah, so you are saying that those of us who are supposed to be living at a higher standard because of the covenants we have made with the Lord are just as backstabbing, judgmental, and whiny as everyone else in the world? what a comfort.

Nanti-SARRMM · Post by **Nanti-SARRMM** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:07 pm

bismark wrote:ah, so you are saying that those of us who are supposed to be living at a higher standard because of the covenants we have made with the Lord are just as backstabbing, judgmental, and whiny as everyone else in the world? what a comfort.

I blame the freshman, this clearly wouldn't happen if such an un-endowed lot were not permitted to mingle among those who have made those covenants.

We need to purify ourselves from the freshmen, Death to the Dirty Freshmen!!!

Cognoscente · Post by **Cognoscente** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:20 am

Hobbes wrote:
Cognoscente wrote:Yeah, I swore. Wanna make somethin' of it?
Get over yourself, Coggers

I'm not trying to be rebellious. Just hedging my bets preemptively against someone saying something.

Humble Master · Post by **Humble Master** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:29 pm

Cognoscente wrote:...every time I read those @#$% things I cringe inside at the stubborn, angry, even vicious judgment against every perceived social imperfection.

I quote this blog post:

Several commenters have noted that the people who have labeled Utahans as "judgmental" and "hypocritical" are coming across as...well...pretty judgmental and hypocritical. (It is hard to call somebody judgmental without sounding judgmental. Did that make me sound judgmental? If you said, "yes", please stop being so judgmental.)

Imogen · Post by **Imogen** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:07 pm

bismark wrote:ah, so you are saying that those of us who are supposed to be living at a higher standard because of the covenants we have made with the Lord are just as backstabbing, judgmental, and whiny as everyone else in the world? what a comfort.

it's almost like you're real people or something. weird.

Nanti-SARRMM · Post by **Nanti-SARRMM** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:17 pm

Imogen wrote:
bismark wrote:ah, so you are saying that those of us who are supposed to be living at a higher standard because of the covenants we have made with the Lord are just as backstabbing, judgmental, and whiny as everyone else in the world? what a comfort.
it's almost like you're real people or something. weird.

That's why we have things like the Daily Universe, so people won't suspect us for being alien cyborgs on a mission to slowly conquer the world.

Post by **bobtheenchantedone** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:05 pm

With you, Sam, everything is conquering the world. Why is that, do you think?

Nanti-SARRMM · Post by **Nanti-SARRMM** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:07 pm

bobtheenchantedone wrote:With you, Sam, everything is conquering the world. Why is that, do you think?

Because I have started playing Civilization again because I was bored one day, and as soon as I get off work I'll eradicate the Chinese.

It may also have something to do with me watching a lot of Pinky and Brain in my childhood as well.

Fredjikrang · Post by **Fredjikrang** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:25 pm

Speaking of which. . . http://www.sph.umich.edu/~rwatt/ponderin.htm