#47600 Proposition 8

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Nanti-SARRMM
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Post by Nanti-SARRMM »

bismark wrote:It seems to me like the supreme court of california was exercising judicial review and striking down a law it found to be unconstitutional.
Ok, I do see how it can ruled unconstitutional considering that marriage can be considered by some as a fundamental right...
But it still comes down to the point that the law wasn't discriminatory against them. They had every right that they could have in connection to marriage. Unfortunately if Proposition 8 is passed, it will mean that the part about any law discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation as constitutionally suspect will be reversed as well.
I guess we just need to blame John Calvin and the others who made it a state issue?
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Post by bismark »

actually i believe that part of the ruling will stay intact if the commentary i have read is correct.
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Post by Werf_Must »

I wonder where Benvolio is--he speaks legalese!
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Post by vorpal blade »

Here is an example of something used in the 4th grade here in California. It comes from a book called "Amber Brown is Green with Envy." My stake president found this very disturbing. What do you think?

"I've thought about this a lot," Brenda continues. "At school, there are kids who are adopted, kids who were born into the family where they are living, kids who have stepfamilies, kids who have two mothers, kids who have two fathers, kids who live with guardians.....so many different ways to live.....and who gets to decide what's normal?"

"It bugs me when one group tries to decide what's normal for everyone." Polly shakes her head. "That causes problems everywhere....in school, in the country, in the world. Fights and wars can start that way."

"The way I figure it," Brenda says, "as long as it doesn't hurt yourself or others, then it's fine."

We all smile at each other.

Then we go back to playing Go Fish.


Does this bother anyone else here?
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Post by Nanti-SARRMM »

vorpal blade wrote: "It bugs me when one group tries to decide what's normal for everyone." Polly shakes her head. "That causes problems everywhere....in school, in the country, in the world. Fights and wars can start that way."

"The way I figure it," Brenda says, "as long as it doesn't hurt yourself or others, then it's fine."
[/i]
Does this bother anyone else here?
Does it bother me as a way to promote tolerance? No. What does bother me is that this isn't an argument over what is normal, but it is what is moral.

No we cannot enforce our morals, but we can teach and defend them cant we? And maybe same sex couples claim that promoting proposition 8 and the like is pushing our morals onto them, but then again, if we let them change the law just because it suits their fancy, then aren't we allowing the morals and ideals to be pushed onto us?

And I do believe that sooner or later actions by others will come to affect many. A good example of how one small thing can affect millions is Mormonism. It started with a young boy, by 1830 there were what, 30 members of the church, and now there are 13 million. So I don't buy the argument that something so small doesn't affect us.

Now, just as many say that allowing people to do whatever in their homes won't affect us, I say that not being labeled as a marriage doesn't affect them either, it doesn't change how they live, their actual relationship, it is just something they want because they <i>feel</i> like they are being prejudiced against in the legal spectrum.

Anyone else have thoughts on all this, on what I just said?
Last edited by Nanti-SARRMM on Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darth Fedora »

vorpal blade wrote:Here is an example of something used in the 4th grade here in California. It comes from a book called "Amber Brown is Green with Envy." My stake president found this very disturbing. What do you think?

"I've thought about this a lot," Brenda continues. "At school, there are kids who are adopted, kids who were born into the family where they are living, kids who have stepfamilies, kids who have two mothers, kids who have two fathers, kids who live with guardians.....so many different ways to live.....and who gets to decide what's normal?"

"It bugs me when one group tries to decide what's normal for everyone." Polly shakes her head. "That causes problems everywhere....in school, in the country, in the world. Fights and wars can start that way."

"The way I figure it," Brenda says, "as long as it doesn't hurt yourself or others, then it's fine."

We all smile at each other.

Then we go back to playing Go Fish.


Does this bother anyone else here?
I think the point is that you're supposed to be nice to everyone, no matter what their background is. That's Christlike love, sweetheart.
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Post by vorpal blade »

bismark wrote:this whole thing about legislating from the bench is interesting to me. it seems as if this precedence was set way back in marbury vs madison. the courts have the right under the constitution to exercise judicial review of any actions made by the legislative branch (in other words the "democratic" part of our government). any law that passes the legislature is technically by majority democratic consent (through representatives of course), but the courts have reserved the right to declare a law unconstitutional. it seems to me like the supreme court of california was exercising judicial review and striking down a law it found to be unconstitutional. this is obviously why prop 8 proponents are pushing for a constitutional amendment, so that prop 22 will no longer be unconstitutional (thus removing the supreme courts ability to strike it down). i guess my point in all of this is i find it annoying that people are blaming the courts for this. i think that is a poor argument that shows a lack of understanding of US political science.
Bismark, I agree that there is a role for the courts to review the constitutionality of cases brought before it. The problem is that the courts do not morally and legally have an unlimited right to go beyond a strict interpretation of the constitution and pretend to see something in the constitution in order to achieve a social change they deem desirable. They have to wait for the people to make such changes. Otherwise they violate the separate of powers, which does not give the court the right to in effect legislate new laws. This is the true understanding of US political science. In his minority opinion Justice J. Baxter explained it pretty well in the case we are talking about here (and thank you for the reference):

"The majority opinion reflects considerable research, thought, and effort on a significant and sensitive case, and I actually agree with several of the majority's conclusions. However, I cannot join the majority's holding that the California Constitution gives same-sex couples a right to marry. In reaching this decision, I believe, the majority violates the separation of powers, and thereby commits profound error."

...

"But a bare majority of this court, not satisfied with the pace of democratic change, now abruptly forestalls that process and substitutes, by judicial fiat, its own social policy views for those expressed by the People themselves. Undeterred by the strong weight of state and federal law and authority, the majority invents a new constitutional right, immune from the ordinary process of legislative consideration. The majority finds that our Constitution suddenly demands no less than a permanent redefinition of marriage, regardless of the popular will.

"In doing so, the majority holds, in effect, that the Legislature has done indirectly what the Constitution prohibits it from doing directly. Under article II, section 10, subdivision (c), that body cannot unilaterally repeal an initiative statue, such as Family Code section 308.5, unless the initiative measure itself so provides. Section 308.5 contains no such provision. Yet the majority suggests that, by enacting other statutes which do provide substantial rights to gays and lesbians--including domestic partnership rights which, under section 308.5, the Legislature could not call "marriage" -- the Legislature has given "explicit official recognition" (maj. opn., ante, at pp. 68, 69) to a California right of equal treatment which, because it includes the right to marry, thereby invalidates section 308.5

"I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature's own weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat the People's will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative interference. Though the majority insists otherwise, its pronouncement seriously oversteps the judicial power. The majority purports to apply certain fundamental provisions of the state Constitution, but it runs afoul of another just as fundamental -- article III, section 3, the separation of powers clause. This clause declares that "[t]he powers of state government are legislative, executive, and judicial," and that "[p]ersons charged with the exercise of one power may not exercise either of the others" except as the Constitution itself specifically provides. (Italics added)"
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Post by vorpal blade »

Imogen wrote:oh and 361, i like myself very much. and i think saying that to someone you don't know anything about is extremely rude and disrespectful. i keep bringing up racism because you guys keep making the same arguments that were used during integration, which my mother remembers all too well. if you remove "gay" from the posts and switch it with "interracial" it sounds like the '60s. even down to "this is a sign of the second coming!" discrimination is discrimination. you an wrap it in a pretty, religious bow, but it's still discrimination.

so please, get over yourself.
I like this argument from Justice J. Corrigan:

"The majority refers to the race cases, from which our equal protection jurisprudence has evolved. The analogy does not hold. The civil rights cases banning racial discrimination were based on duly enacted amendments to the United States Constitution, proposed by Congress and ratified by the people through the states. To our nation's great shame, many individuals and governmental critics obdurately refused to follow these constitutional imperatives for nearly a century. By overturning Jim Crow and other segregation laws, the courts properly and courageously held the people accountable to their own constitutional mandates. Here the situation is quite different. In less than a decade, through the democratic process, same-sex couples have been given the equal legal rights to which they are entitled.

In Perez v. Sharp (1948) 32 Cal.2d 711, we struck down a law prohibiting interracial marriages. The majority places great reliance on the Perez court's statement that "the right to marry is the right to join in marriage with the person of one's choice." (Id. at p. 715.) However, Perez and the many other cases establishing the fundamental right to marry were all based on the common understanding of marriage as the union of a man and a woman. (See maj. opn., ante, at pp. 54-63.) The majority recognizes this, as it must. (Id. at p. 66) Because those cases involved the traditional definition of marriage, they do not support the majority's analysis. The question here is whether the meaning of the term as it was used in those cases must be changed.

What is unique about this case is the plaintiffs seek both to join the institution of marriage and at the same time to alter its definition. the majority maintains that plaintiffs are not attempting to change the existing institution of marriage. (Maj. opn., ante, at p. 53.) This claim is irreconcilable with the majority's declaration that "[f]rom the beginning of Californian statehood, the legal institution of civil marriage has been understood to refer to a relationship between a man and a woman." (Id. at p. 23, fn. omitted.) The people are entitled to preserve this traditional understanding in the terminology of the law, recognizing that same-sex and opposite-sex unions are different. What they are not entitled to is treat them differently under the law.

The distinction between substance and nomenclature makes this case different from other civil rights cases. The definition of the rights to education, to vote, to pursue an office or occupation, and the other celebrated civil rights vindicated by the courts, were not altered by extending them to all races and both genders. The institution of marriage was not fundamentally changed by removing the racial restrictions that formerly encumbered it. Plaintiffs, however, seek to change the definition of the marital relationship, as it has consistently been understood, into something quite new. They could certainly accomplish such a redefinition through the initiative process. As a voter, I might agree. But that change is for the people to adopt, not for judges to dictate."
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Post by Imogen »

Nanti-SARRMM wrote:
bismark wrote:i would vote for the privatization of marriage. marriage is instituted of God, not of man. therefore i would vote for all marriage-like arrangements to be treated as civil unions in the eyes of the government. this is the best solution to this mess in my opinion. it stops us from trying to legislate based on religious grounds and poor understanding of judicial review (see marbury vs madison) while allowing us to keep our beliefs untouched.
I like this idea more, especially what you said somewhere else, make civil unions the only legal marriage to be able to get tax breaks and the like, and then people can get married how they please in whichever church they want. It works in Mexico just fine that way. In fact, it might just help things here so non member parents can view their children's wedding/union/whatever in the judge's office or wherever, and then the couple can go get married in temple.
Imogen wrote:the traditional family is already dead... most people don't think of marriage as eternal. a lot of people don't even think of it as an ideal situation.
Which I think is unfortunate, but may be true in most of America.
Imogen wrote:you can blather on about sin and act like you're superior, vb and eponine. however, your religion shouldn't effect the laws that govern us all. i don't believe in eternal marriage. i see how that is important you guys, but that doesn't mean that belief trumps my right to marry a woman if i want to. i don't believe being gay is a sin. i think that saying that makes you silly and small minded. but i'm not going to make it illegal for you to say that, no matter how much it makes me angry. however, why should what YOU think is a sin mean I don't get to do it as long as it's not hurting anyone? who i marry, have sex with, or live with has no effect on your life. seriously. none at all. and who you marry, etc has no effect on MY life. i hope your marriages are happy and long lasting. but whether they are or not doesn't change what happens to me.
I agree, whatever things you wish to in your house, whoever you want to shoe up with should not legally be any of my or our concern. The point of the topic is whether homosexuality is a sin or not. You don't believe it is, we do, I also think that it is anatomically weird and bizarre, but that is just me. If that sort of thing turns you on, well more power to you, just don't let me know.
As for marriage though and Proposition 8, I think the entire argument, along with Connecticut, is blown out of the water for the following reasons:
1. The courts overturned a piece of legislation as voted on by the people.
2. Civil unions were already in place with all the rights that married heterosexual people had that California could grant
3. All this fight, from how I perceive it, is a change in name only. Everyone is crying out for equality, I have read some blogs saying that separate but equal is not equal, referring to segregation. But this is far different than the 60's and the civil rights movement, which it seems to be equated to. Here is the thing though; Marriage isn't a right, taxes and everything the government assigns to it is. Marriage is an institution. That is the thing.

Imogen, you say that the sanctity of marriage, or marriage itself has been destroyed. Maybe in how it is practiced, yes. But look at the two terms 'Marriage' and 'Civil Union'. What is different? In California nothing is different, all same rights are granted to both, and people are allowed to do what they do in their houses.
The difference is in the definition, in meaning of the word. To me, marriage is something more than a Civil Union, it especially means commitment, it implies sacredness, especially in a majorly christian society where most think it is sanctioned by God and has a bit of specialness to it. Maybe to you and some others Marriage and Civil Union are synonymous, but to a whole lot more people, they are different.
Last I knew this was a democracy and the majority had the say in things. Why should we let a few thousand people in one state change the word or name of something that many more in the same state don't want changed.

And again, I believe that the judges have over-stepped their bounds and legislate things like this, just to make things more politically correct or to not offend people.
That is why I am for Prop. 8., because all it is, is a name change that people are freaking out about.

And Imogen, I would like to hear your thoughts on what I just said. Really.
my thoughts are Brown V. The Board of Education. the court overturned a law voted on by the people. it was the correct choice. and yes, marriage connotes a stronger commitment, and not in a christian sense. like i said, christians didn't invent marriage, or even the word. jews and zoroastrians and egyptians and shintoists got married long before jesus appeared on the scene. marriage isn't special to just just christians and they shouldn't decide what is done with its legal status or the word. also, if someone feels prejudiced against, chances are they ARE BEING PREJUDICED AGAINST! i'm not saying people can't be over sensitive (jesse jackson, i am looking directly at you). however, when someone is saying to you "well, you can have this, but we get to keep our word. you're not allowed to have it because you'll ruin it and make it dirty," wouldn't you say that is prejudice?

and vorpal, you seem not to understand that gay couples do NOT have all the same rights as straight couples. new york has "civil unions," but those are awarded hundreds of less rights than marriage. many states that ban gay marriage don't have a civil union alternative. so couples in those states have fewer rights. it is NEVER right to tell someone they are less deserving of rights for any reason.

and nowhere in Perez v. Sharp does it say marriage is only between a man in a woman. it may have been decided with that understanding, but if it's not written specifically in the case law, it doesn't hold water.

"the people are entitled to preserve this traditional understanding in the terminology of the law, recognizing that same-sex and opposite-sex unions are different. What they are not entitled to is treat them differently under the law. "--- the traditional terminology of marriage USED to mean same race. that has changed. it USED to mean you'd only marry someone of your religion. that has changed. ALL UNIONS ARE DIFFERENT. my marriage will not be anything like your mormon marriage. the ceremonies, clothes, and activities will be different. my marriage won't even be a christian one. does that make mine less than yours? no. so just because something is DIFFERENT doesn't mean it's less and deserving of fewer rights.

we don't live in a theocracy people. we're SUPPOSED to be a secular nation that respects all people and allows them to practice their religion freely and live their own lives with EQUAL RIGHTS. funny how that's not happening.

and darth, i love your response to vorpal.

and eponine, there was actually a case of a brother and sister having kids in europe. they didn't know they were siblings until their first child was born (with no birth defects of any kind, btw). it was a weird, very "parent trap" situation where the parents split up and each took a kid. according to most biology, people are attracted to those most like themselves (which isn't true with me and my friends, but i digress...), so from a biological perspective it makes sense they ended up together. however, we also develop certain biological blocks from mating with close relatives when raised with the knowledge of that close relationship. if i can find the article on BBC i'll post the link. i know they wanted to marry but couldn't because of the law, and since they didn't think of each other as brother and sister they couldn't really change how they felt about each other.
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Post by Eponine »

Imogen, I find it interesting that you take a stance (on nearly everything you've talked about) that we as humans rarely have choices. You think that homosexuality is entirely genetic and that they have no choice on the matter. You think that it's impossible to control who you love. I think that this is a common belief which is slightly ironic to me. These people fight for their freedom (a word which implies that they can make choices) because of their lack of control over their own lives (like who they love).

I believed this myself when I was 13 and still writing embarassing love poetry about boys, but now I disagree. I know that I have complete control over who I love. I choose every single day to be madly in love with my husband, and saying that doesn't make my love any less real. I think there are more choices open to use as humans than you're allowing in your arguments.
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Post by 361 »

Imogen wrote: it is NEVER right to tell someone they are less deserving of rights for any reason.
Tell that to the felons... I'm sure they would love to have their right to vote, bear arms, etc restored.
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Post by Imogen »

361 wrote:
Imogen wrote: it is NEVER right to tell someone they are less deserving of rights for any reason.
Tell that to the felons... I'm sure they would love to have their right to vote, bear arms, etc restored.
it's never right to tell someone they are less deserving of rights, unless they consciously do something to harm other people.

is that better for you?
Last edited by Imogen on Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Imogen »

Eponine wrote:Imogen, I find it interesting that you take a stance (on nearly everything you've talked about) that we as humans rarely have choices. You think that homosexuality is entirely genetic and that they have no choice on the matter. You think that it's impossible to control who you love. I think that this is a common belief which is slightly ironic to me. These people fight for their freedom (a word which implies that they can make choices) because of their lack of control over their own lives (like who they love).

I believed this myself when I was 13 and still writing embarassing love poetry about boys, but now I disagree. I know that I have complete control over who I love. I choose every single day to be madly in love with my husband, and saying that doesn't make my love any less real. I think there are more choices open to use as humans than you're allowing in your arguments.
i see what you're saying, but you had no control over the initial attraction to your husband. if you weren't attracted to him in the first place you probably wouldn't be married to him now. there are exceptions, but i know i've never seen a guy i'm unattracted to and thought "man, i could marry/love/date him." it just doesn't happen. so while you CAN decide who you love, why would you CHOOSE to go after someone there's no spark with? if i were a lesbian, i wouldn't date men because there would be no potential for the kind of love that leads to a marriage type of commitment. i would surely love men, but in a strictly platonic sense. why would you marry someone you WEREN'T madly in love with, as you are with your husband? and why not allow other people that same privilege?
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Post by 361 »

Imogen wrote:
Eponine wrote:Imogen, I find it interesting that you take a stance (on nearly everything you've talked about) that we as humans rarely have choices. You think that homosexuality is entirely genetic and that they have no choice on the matter. You think that it's impossible to control who you love. I think that this is a common belief which is slightly ironic to me. These people fight for their freedom (a word which implies that they can make choices) because of their lack of control over their own lives (like who they love).

I believed this myself when I was 13 and still writing embarassing love poetry about boys, but now I disagree. I know that I have complete control over who I love. I choose every single day to be madly in love with my husband, and saying that doesn't make my love any less real. I think there are more choices open to use as humans than you're allowing in your arguments.
i see what you're saying, but you had no control over the initial attraction to your husband. if you weren't attracted to him in the first place you probably wouldn't be married to him now. there are exceptions, but i know i've never seen a guy i'm unattracted to and thought "man, i could marry/love/date him." it just doesn't happen. so while you CAN decide who you love, why would you CHOOSE to go after someone there's no spark with? if i were a lesbian, i wouldn't date men because there would be no potential for the kind of love that leads to a marriage type of commitment. i would surely love men, but in a strictly platonic sense. why would you marry someone you WEREN'T madly in love with, as you are with your husband? and why not allow other people that same privilege?
Ethics.

It's why, when you're driving... and you REALLY feel like slamming the front of your car into the rear quarter panel of the jerk who cut you off because he clearly deserves it... and even if you're in the right... You choose not too... Because it would be WRONG of you to do so. (If your only reason for refraining is because you would 'get in trouble' you have huge ethical issues...)

It's why, even if you have a strong romantic interest in your brother/sister/family member... You do not act upon it... Because it's WRONG to do so...

It's why when the cashier gives you a 20 instead of a 5, you turn around and give it the 15 back. They gave it to you, and no one will ever know... and it's an extra 15 bucks for you... no one gets in trouble... but it's the RIGHT thing to do.

It's all about ethics. Your ethics are different than ours... So you naturally think laws that support your ethical background are pretty much 100% spot-on and unquestionable...

Similarly... We think that those same laws that you laud as being beyond question are very questionable.

Now we're talking about redefining societies ethical structure. It's a big deal.

This is what voting is for.... So society as a whole can decide what we want to do...
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Post by Imogen »

but society's ethical structure is constantly changing. it is always in flux.
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Post by Nanti-SARRMM »

Imogen wrote:but society's ethical structure is constantly changing. it is always in flux.
Maybe. But last I knew, stealing was always bad, looked down upon and punished. (except when you are a bank in financial trouble) Or will that soon change too?

Also, you make a good point, where you said,
Imogen wrote: also, if someone feels prejudiced against, chances are they ARE BEING PREJUDICED AGAINST!
So if people feel they are being prejudiced against now, what happens if gay marriage becomes legal not only on a state level, but on a federal level as well? You compare how our arguments are similar to the racist arguments in the sixties, well then let's follow it. What would have happened if a church or any organization had spoken out against equal rights for all after it had passed? They undoubtedly would have been brought to court in a major lawsuit.
Now lets say that gay marriage becomes legalized not only in the majority of the sate constitutions, but in in the Constitution as well, that it becomes a federally protected right?
It then means that any church, any organization, that speaks out against same sex marriage, that won't marry homosexual couples would then be violating, or speaking out against the Constitution. It then means people will continue to feel prejudiced against and could legally sue; all because a minority of the people want to follow their emotions and be allowed to do kinky things in their houses under the same naming convention of everyone else.

Now you think gay marriage is ok, we think it immoral. Obviously we cannot interfere in what goes on in one's bedroom, or with who. But look at it this way: If Proposition 8 passes, then we are allowed to speak out for what we believe is something morally wrong and same gendered couples still get to live with each other with the same amount of love as they would have had if their civil union were actually called marriage. Nothing changes for them. Maybe other states approve of the same type of civil unions, maybe not.

If it fails, then it means that same gendered couples are in a relationship called marriage, with the same amount of love that they had for each other as before. Except now since it is legal, and in the California Constitution, anyone who speaks out against it could be deemed as speaking out against their legal rights and could be sued.
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Post by vorpal blade »

Imogen wrote: my thoughts are Brown V. The Board of Education. the court overturned a law voted on by the people. it was the correct choice. and yes, marriage connotes a stronger commitment, and not in a christian sense. like i said, christians didn't invent marriage, or even the word. jews and zoroastrians and egyptians and shintoists got married long before jesus appeared on the scene. marriage isn't special to just just christians and they shouldn't decide what is done with its legal status or the word.
I agree with you, Imogen, that Christians didn't invent marriage. We believe that marriage was instituted before the foundation of the world. After God created Adam and Eve he pronounced them husband and wife. But the point I would like to make is that the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman is ancient, and is found in nearly all cultures, whether Christian or not. It isn't just Christians. In California this November we all get to vote on the legal definition of marriage. There is nothing wrong with my voting the way I believe, as there is nothing wrong with you voting the way you believe.
Imogen wrote:and vorpal, you seem not to understand that gay couples do NOT have all the same rights as straight couples. new york has "civil unions," but those are awarded hundreds of less rights than marriage. many states that ban gay marriage don't have a civil union alternative. so couples in those states have fewer rights. it is NEVER right to tell someone they are less deserving of rights for any reason.
The issue I am addressing is Proposition 8 in California. I am not addressing gay rights in general. In California by law gay couples have all the rights of married people. A defeat of Proposition 8 would not change that fact. Gay couples will still have all the rights of married couples. I meet many people who don't seem to understand that. They think Proposition 8 is against gay rights. It is not. So voting against Proposition 8 for that reason would be a mistake.
Imogen wrote:and nowhere in Perez v. Sharp does it say marriage is only between a man in a woman. it may have been decided with that understanding, but if it's not written specifically in the case law, it doesn't hold water.
Justice Carrigan is just saying that the other California Supreme Court justices were wrong in using Perez v. Sharp to support same-sex marriage, and they were wrong for the reason you give. So, for the reason you give Carrigan's argument definitely DOES hold water.
Imogen wrote:"the people are entitled to preserve this traditional understanding in the terminology of the law, recognizing that same-sex and opposite-sex unions are different. What they are not entitled to is treat them differently under the law. "--- the traditional terminology of marriage USED to mean same race. that has changed. it USED to mean you'd only marry someone of your religion. that has changed. ALL UNIONS ARE DIFFERENT. my marriage will not be anything like your mormon marriage. the ceremonies, clothes, and activities will be different. my marriage won't even be a christian one. does that make mine less than yours? no. so just because something is DIFFERENT doesn't mean it's less and deserving of fewer rights.
I believe you are saying that our understanding of what marriage is, and what constitutes marriage changes over time and in different places. I don't disagree with you entirely on this. With all these differences there has been at least one common thing that makes marriage, marriage. You have to have the union of a man and a woman. You can have partnerships, associations, clubs, friendships, secret combinations, and all kinds of relationships, but a common denominator has always been that you have to have a man and a woman.

You can't find, or if you do find it I would like to know about it, a dictionary that defines marriage in such a way that it says the union of a black man and a white woman cannot be a marriage. The dictionary doesn't say that it is not a marriage if the man and the woman believe in different religions. It is precisely because it was possible that a man from one race, and a woman from another race could get married and have children that some misguided people enacted laws to prevent that kind of legal recognition of the marriage. The laws never changed the definition of marriage, they just excluded certain choices you could make to whom you could legally marry.

The law also specifies a minimum age to get married. It specifies restrictions on family relationships which will prevent you from marrying your parent or a sibling. This does not change the fundamental definition of marriage.

A person with a same-sex attraction is legally free to marry a person of the opposite sex. This is the same civil and legal right that people with an opposite-sex attraction have. You are free to have sexual relations with another consenting adult of either sex. But traditionally there have been restrictions, equally enforced on all of us, about what constitutes a legal marriage. Whether you want to marry a person of the opposite sex or same sex is irrelevant, the laws are equal for every citizen. You can't just say, I want to marry my pet, and because I want to do it, and you won't let me do it, you are discriminating against me and denying me my civil rights. You can say that such a person may not be deserving of calling such a relationship marriage, but you can't say that he automatically has fewer rights than you because he wants to call his relationship to his pet marriage, and you want to marry a person of the opposite sex.

What same-sex marriage advocates are asking for is something new. They are not asking to participate in the ancient tradition of marriage, as it has always been understood to mean, they are asking for a change in the very definition of marriage so that what they are doing can also be called marriage. This is profoundly different from asking to have the same rights as others. They are not asking for equal rights, they are asking for a new definition of marriage.

That's the way I see it, anyway.
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Eponine
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Post by Eponine »

You make good points, VB, and that brings me to a metaphor. "Most people will agree that if a person wants to abide by all of the guidelines and sit anywhere that a seat is open on a bus, he should be permitted to do so regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation. However by the same token, if a man wants to completely change the definition of “riding the bus” to mean, let's say, hanging on to the back bumper as the bus speeds through town, I think everyone would agree that he shouldn’t be allowed to change the definition in that way, regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation. Why? Because his desire to change the definition would create a chaotic and unacceptable situation throughout town. It might be what he personally wants to do, and he might try to say that making him use a different method for his transportation purposes is “inequality,” but the fact remains that he can still travel anywhere in “town” that he wants, he just must use a method of transportation that does not infringe on society’s need for safety and stability." (this story and many more items of interest can be found on this website: http://truthaboutprop8.com )
Yours Truly,
Eponine

"And did you know, Monsieur Marius, I do believe I was a little in love with you..."
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vorpal blade
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Post by vorpal blade »

Very interesting and appropriate metaphor, Eponine. In my opinion.
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Post by Nanti-SARRMM »

vorpal blade wrote: What same-sex marriage advocates are asking for is something new. They are not asking to participate in the ancient tradition of marriage, as it has always been understood to mean, they are asking for a change in the very definition of marriage so that what they are doing can also be called marriage. This is profoundly different from asking to have the same rights as others. They are not asking for equal rights, they are asking for a new definition of marriage.
I believe I said that earlier... except you expressed it better.
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