Not-Such-a-mama-bear thoughts

[TheAnswerIs42]

I just wanted to say that I can see where this reader was coming from. To be perfectly honest, I have felt the same way a lot. A lot of my friends are just over-the-moon about having kids. I think there is a God-given maternal drive that feeds this desire for them to have kids, and to adore them more than anything else in the universe. But I have never actually felt that. I felt like she does, I think. It wasn't that I actually felt guilty, it was that I wondered if I should feel guilty for not following the norm. Like when everyone else was dating in high school and I really wasn't that interested in dating. The "am I missing something here?" worry. But no matter how I prayed about it as a newlywed, I never got that "clock ticking" drive to have kids. We felt guilty preventing having kids when we prayed about it, so we were just . . . careful. And when we got pregnant a year or two later, I took that as Heavenly Father taking the wheel.

So I automatically quit my job to stay home like we always planned on. We logically decided how far apart we wanted kids, and had the next one. And now I am in the same spot she is. I listened to conference and thought, "huh. Should I feel guilty about not really wanting more kids?" Everyone else seems to have 4-5. But I never actually felt driven to have the ones we have, they just kinda showed up. And I love them, I think mainly because I spend so much time serving them. They are dang cute, after all, even if they make a lot of messes. But is just isn't the same attachment I see in my friends. My husband and I both feel like two is managable, and in some ways only see more chaos when we think about having another kid. In my heart, I just am waiting until my prayers bring an emotional desire to have kids, because I feel like it would make me a better mother to that child. Otherwise I will continue on just missing my job while reminding myself that the best thing I can do is be home, despite the sacrifice. But maybe I never will feel that way. All I can do is keep praying and following the promptings I get there.

So, yeah, I just wanted to say I liked the answer that Rating Pending had. But I wanted to let her know that she isn't alone. "Perhaps this is a spiritual gift that is so common that it is taken for granted (like the gift of being a mother itself). Maybe it is nothing that you will ever feel." I, personally, never have. And it makes staying at home with two kids more difficult, not doubt. But I know it is the right thing to do, and so I do it.

[NerdGirl]

I'm not married (I'm 26) and I've never felt the overwhelming need to get married and have kids right now that some of my female friends seem to have. I would really like to have a family, and sometimes I think that it would be easier to deal with life if I had a husband to come home to every day, but I've never felt a sense of urgency about it, and I definitely don't feel like my biological clock is ticking. I used to think that I was a freak for not feeling that way. My freshman roommate used to lie in bed at night and cry because she didn't have a husband, and she cried on her 19th birthday because that was one more child-bearing year down the drain. I thought it was normal to feel like she did. I love kids and want to have some, but I don't feel guilty about not getting married and having them right now, and I also don't want to have a huge family. I'm from a family of 2 kids, and we're both really close to our parents, and I just feel like it would be easier for me to have really strong relationships with my kids if there are not very many of them. I'm sure that parents of lots of kids still manage to be great parents, but a small family is what I know about and it's kind of what I want. At this point, it's probably what I'll end up with because marriage doesn't seem to be in Heavenly Father's plan for me any time soon, but I'm really okay with that.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

she cried on her 19th birthday because that was one more child-bearing year down the drain

Lol. That's hilarious.

[Unit of Energy]

Wow, I've always wanted kids and marriage, but never so much that I'd cry about losing a year of childbearing, I've never wanted that many children. My mom had 7 healthy children and didn't even get married until she was 27, so I'm not that worried. At least not on that point. Marriage has always been a part of my plans and as I plan the last year and a half of my schooling, I'm starting to worry what I'm going to do if I don't get married before I graduate, but not so much that I'm going to freak out about it. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle of being desperate for children and not really wanting them but not not wanting them.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I'm rather like UoE up there, wanting marriage and children but okay with waiting for it. Though I get the feeling I would be much more concerned about time if I weren't living with a whole bunch of children right now. I'm fine reading to Siri and cuddling Caiti and practicing my bossy skills on my other siblings. ; D

[crmeatball]

This topic can be a very difficult one to discuss in a public forum, primarily due to the fact this topic deals with a decision which is private. However, discussing a such a topic is not wrong, so long as we respect the private and personal decisions of other. When I first read this question (and response) I suspect this was sparked by Elder Dallin H. Oaks’ comment about couples choosing a dog rather than having children [1]. As my wife and I are still in the phase of life where our children are born, this made me think about our own decisions about children, and about the doctrines of the gospel which need to be considered when making these decisions. As one studies this topic, they will discover there are many statements from Church leaders cautioning us from delaying our families, as pointed out today by Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe. But at the same time, we are counseled “the decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.” [2]

In the temple, we are given the same charge as Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.” This principle perhaps the easiest to glean from the marriage covenant and probably the most misunderstood. The reason why it is the easiest to glean is because we hear this phrase often, as it is found throughout the scriptures and it is a clear, direct command from the Father. However, while this aspect of marriage is certainly important, we should not mistake it for being the sole or primary purpose of marriage, even though it is certainly an extremely important component of marriage. In the Church, marriage is commonly referred to as Eternal Marriage. We see the word “Eternal” and immediately think of a duration of time, something without end. Those are certainly applicable, but are results of what "Eternal" means. To be eternal is to be God-like. So Eternal Marriage is not simply a marriage of infinite duration, it is a marriage of God. While my experience is short and my failings many, I have learned that marriage is an institution which allows us to grow, not just individually, but as a couple and family. Salvation may be an individual matter, but exaltation is a family matter.

So while the primary purpose of marriage is exaltation of both individuals, much of the growth and development needed to become like our Heavenly Father is obtained through the sacrifice and service given to our children. The Savior said “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”[3] The laying down of our lives does not require our death. It simply requires placing the needs and happiness of others before our own, as the Savior did throughout His life, and clearly demonstrated in the Garden of Gethsemane. If there is a better definition of parenthood, I have not found one. Having children requires the greatest sacrifice one can give. From before the child is born, till the end of our mortal existence, parents dedicate their lives to their children. And through this sacrifice, parents together learn the God-like attributes which are necessary to achieve exaltation. In Moses 5:11, Eve proclaims “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.” The first thing which Eve declared of all the blessings from the Fall, is the bearing of children. The greatest sacrifice brings the greatest joy.

In the Church, we consider the sealing ordinance the culmination of all the priesthood ordinances which we participate in. It is through this covenant, we are blessed with all the Father hath.[4] Also through this covenant, we are given the authority to share in God’s creative power. Elder Jeffery R. Holland referred to this as a sacrament, “gestures or acts or ordinances that unite us with God and his limitless powers.” [5] He goes on to explain that on occasion, and as frequently as possible and appropriate, we are to create the circumstances where “we can unite symbolically with him” by participating in these holy sacraments. [6]

As I think back upon my life and search for the moments of greatest joy, I find these moments are those when I am partaking of these sacraments which Elder Holland refers to. Times which I have felt this great joy include kneeling across the altar of the temple, my hand in my wife’s and being sealed for time and for all eternity. Or exercising my responsibilities as a priesthood holder and family patriarch by taking my sons in my arms and blessing them for the first time. But perhaps the greatest joy I have felt in my life is standing in a delivery room, looking upon my children as they are born, standing at the side of my eternal companion and sharing in that joy with her. But the joy which starts with birth, grows and strengthens as the child grows. Sure, there are times when the child is disobedient or does things which disappoint. However, that joy only grows as you see him smiling at you, or kneeling down and saying a simple prayer with you each morning and evening.

As Lehi was about to pass away, he taught his sons the purpose of life. He summed it up in one very simple statement. "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." Many things in our lives will bring us happiness. Many such things are listed as potential reasons to put off having children by the petitioner and several of the responders. Things such as using a college degree to work, focusing on the personal relationship between a husband and wife or any number of other possibilities. All of these things are good and will bring happiness. But will they bring joy? Or will that joy compare with the joy found as a parent? That is really the question we need to consider as we make decisions about family planning. In addition, we need to consider will having children really prohibit experiencing these other things? I would suggest it does not, but in fact enhances them. Take for example the idea of using a college degree to work. This view is placing greater value in working outside the home, thinking that a college degree is wasted by raising children. But the knowledge gained through a college education only enhances the parenting experience, even more so than working outside the home.

Elder Holland said we should seek after these sacramental experiences as frequently as possible and appropriate. It certainly is possible to begin bearing children immediately upon marriage and do so every 18 months or so. But the real question is if it is appropriate to do so. This is a question which is very difficult to answer, and perhaps too sacred and private to share in a forum beyond the discussions between a husband, wife and the Lord. But as we consider such, we must ask ourselves if our reasons for delay are appropriate as well. The author of the question to the 100 hour board asked if there was some magical point where they would feel ready to give up the rest of their life for somebody else. When considering this question, we must take an eternal perspective. While we may be giving up a significant portion of our mortal lives for our children, we must consider the eternal consequences. In D&C 121:7-8, the Lord puts such a sacrifice in perspective. “My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.” When considering the planning of our families, remember, just like our marriages, they are eternal. If we are able to make the sacrifice and “endure it well,” we will gain all the Father hath, even eternal life.

[1] "Unselfish Service," Elder Dallin H. Oaks, 179th Annual General Conference, http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/ ... 29,00.html
[2] "Birth Control", Gospel Topics, LDS Gospel Library
[3] John 15:13
[4] D&C 132:19
[5] "Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments", Elder Jeffery R. Holland, BYU Devotional Jan 12, 1988, http://www.familylifeeducation.org/gill ... /Souls.htm
[6] [i]Ibid[/i]

[vorpal blade]

I just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments. I think Rating Pending, KirKe, and crmeatball have done an excellent job of presenting the Church doctrine on a personal and touchy subject.

[Portia]

I'm getting married soon-ish, and have no intention of (A) having children soon (B) feeling guilty about it. My mother had me when she was younger than me, and had her kids very spaced out, which, while it worked out, convinced me that I wanted the opposite (to wait till my late 20s, then have them all close together).

Contrary to the belief of some, this isn't out of some desire to slave away in the rat race, or acquire some fancy car, or whatever reasons more conservative people often assume drive such decisions. It's simply a matter of personal choice, maturity, and my future husband's desires (which I think are sometimes overlooked. I don't think women should twist their husbands' arms into having more babies or having them sooner . . . rarely ends well).

I'd be interested in seeing studies related to maternal age/waiting period after marriage and how it relates to marital satisfaction and issues like post-partum depression. My guess is that you'd see a bell curve of some sort with both issues. (i.e., the average woman probably will start to regret putting off childbearing once she's closing in on menopause)

One thing I wonder is whether baby-exposure influences desires. I had next to no contact with any babies/small children growing up, and up to recently, they were not cuddly balls of goo, but rather unholy demons of terror (now I am mostly neutral to slightly positive, I guess?). Whereas someone like bob, whose family seems to have an infant rotation every 18 months, seems quite at ease with the much-younger set. Ha.

Besides, I have to learn to drive first . . . :eyeroll: I've given up on beating my brother (who turns 16 this Dec.) . . . we'll see if I manage to achieve this before my 8-year-old sister doubles her age. : P

[Imogen]

i've said this before, but not all women have this burning desire to be mothers. i definitely do. i have some serious baby fever. every time i see a little one i just want to take it home or go have my own. but i know plenty of people who just don't like kids or don't feel comfortable around them and are happy to wait. no one should feel guilty about that. and no one should feel guilty about having kids and working. each family's financial and personal situation is different. my mother would have been MISERABLE if she had stayed home with me. having a happy mother made me a happy daughter. children can pick up on if their parents are happy, no matter how hard they may try to mask any dissatisfaction. each family needs to decide what's right for them. i think a stronger marital foundation will make it more likely that the parents will handle any conflict over the children better. i know once i get married i plan on waiting for at least 3-4 years before i have children. and that's not about a career (i'm lucky enough to have a career path already on track during my single years). but i want to spend some time with my husband at the beginning of our marriage. and that's partly selfish and partly because i want us to be on the same page before we have little ones.


and YAY PORTIA!!!! congrats! that's wonderful! now learn to drive!!!! it's so liberating to get in the car and drive wherever you want!

[NerdGirl]

Congratulations Portia!! I don't know how to drive yet, either.

[vorpal blade]

Contrary to the belief of some, this isn't out of some desire to slave away in the rat race, or acquire some fancy car, or whatever reasons more conservative people often assume drive such decisions. It's simply a matter of personal choice, maturity, and my future husband's desires (which I think are sometimes overlooked. I don't think women should twist their husbands' arms into having more babies or having them sooner . . . rarely ends well).

I don't know that being judgmental is peculiar to "conservative people."

You sound a little like my youngest daughter, who has had little experience tending children, and hasn't yet learned to drive.

[Imogen]

vorpal, i believe portia means people more conservative than herself, not conservatives in general.

[Unit of Energy]

Being judgmental is definitely not limited to conservative people, but being judgmental about whether or not someone else should be having children is a judgment that is usually constrained to the conservative side of the line, at least in why aren't they having them cases. And I'll admit that I am somewhat judgmental when people choose to put off children for what I deem to be selfish reasons. It's something I'm trying to work on. But at the same time I don't think that you should have kids if you can't take care of them. Don't put them off so that you can buy them all new clothes, do put them off so that you can clothe them. That kind of thing. But I also know that many many couples are unable to have children, and this is a large reason that we should not judge others on their lack of children. And one reason that I don't want to put kids off for too long after getting married. A year or two maybe but not much longer, in case there are complications that arise I still want to be young enough to deal with complications.

[vorpal blade]

I noticed that there was yet another question on this topic (#51468). Claudio referenced some good quotes.

I try not to speculate why people don’t have more children than they do. It isn’t my business, there can be all kinds of legitimate reasons that I know nothing about. It isn’t my place to judge others. The temptation to wonder why some of my own married children don’t have children is stronger, but I still respect their privacy and if it is something they have chosen to do I trust that they have asked the Lord to help them make this decision.

I would imagine that the most conservative people in the church – your bishop, stake president, and General Authorities – would be the least likely to assume you are not having children for the wrong reasons.

I believe the quotes we have seen show that we are commanded to have children. There are obviously good reasons for not keeping that commandment. We may not be able to get married. If married there are physical reasons we may not be able to have children. There are real limitations as a result of the emotional and financial demands of having children, and the timing of the children. I’m sure God is understanding of the reasons we can’t have children.

What I would be worried about is when we decide we don’t want to keep this commandment. Years from now how will you feel about not wanting children because you don’t really like other people’s children, or you first wanted to pursue a career, or spend more one-on-one time with your spouse, or take up some hobbies, or finish your college education, or save up money for a really nice house, or for some selfish reasons. I’m not saying that these reasons are necessarily wrong, but it is easy to rationalize our behavior when it is something we want versus keeping the commandment.

Choosing not to keep any commandment is always an option, but there are always consequences.

[Whistler]

in this case the consequence is having kids when you're old and feeling awkward when all the other mothers are younger?

[Laser Jock]

Like vorpal and others have said, I don't speculate as to why couples may not have had children yet. I personally don't think you're a sinner if you don't have a baby nine months after your wedding, either. However, when couples do give reasons for not having children, and they list financial concerns among them, I wonder if the real issue is more one of mindset than anything else. I've known quite a few newlyweds who were (a) very poor, and (b) still successfully had and raised children. My own parents were in this group for many years after I was born. I think that with only a few quite rare exceptions, it is usually possible to begin having children soon after marriage even as poor college students that are still in school and living off of one meager income.

I do think that you could make a valid argument that different people have different thresholds of what they're willing to sacrifice for children, including financially. I don't expect everyone to have the same temperament and make the same sacrifices. However, I wonder if those thresholds might not be a bit too high sometimes. Certainly the threshold for society in general has only been getting higher, and I think the same is likely true of many Church members as well.

[bismark]

something i've wondered about: is it alright to go into debt (we always hear debt for education or a modest house is ok) or go on government welfare just to have children?

[Katya]

something i've wondered about: is it alright to go into debt (we always hear debt for education or a modest house is ok) or go on government welfare just to have children?

I'm sympathetic to couples who find themselves in situations where they have to go on welfare, but I find it dishonest to plan on doing so for the sake of having children a few years earlier.

[TheAnswerIs42]

I agree. I mean, there is a point at which you need to give up the "wants" for kids, and make your tight budget fit. But it seems like a bad idea to know beyond a doubt that you cannot feed this child on your own, and then go for it anyway and expect others to fix it for you. I guess if you pray and that is what you feel is right, it isn't any of my business.

I don't know, maybe it is just me, but we never let finances enter the discussion on when to have kids. But we did wait. For us, that was very much the right decision. I think we are better parents because we had that time to meld ourselves together before the stress of kids was added on top. Other people don't seem to need that. My "selfish thoughts" problem now isn't finances, it is "do I really want another baby again?" When I think of another baby, I remember cutting my errands short after only one hour because the newborn needs to get home for a nap, or the stress of when two kids need me at once moving to when three kids need me at once, or just the general added work another baby is. That is my selfish thought pattern I need to work on discarding, personally. Kids are not convenient or easy.

[Unit of Energy]

I would imagine that the most conservative people in the church – your bishop, stake president, and General Authorities – would be the least likely to assume you are not having children for the wrong reasons.

I'm pretty sure that that is not the type of conservative people I was talking about. And yes, I have to question myself, because there are several types of conservative in the world.