It sounds like you're taking your personal needs and the overall stress level of your family into account when thinking of having another child. I don't see how that's selfish.TheAnswerIs42 wrote:My "selfish thoughts" problem now isn't finances, it is "do I really want another baby again?" When I think of another baby, I remember cutting my errands short after only one hour because the newborn needs to get home for a nap, or the stress of when two kids need me at once moving to when three kids need me at once, or just the general added work another baby is. That is my selfish thought pattern I need to work on discarding, personally. Kids are not convenient or easy.
Not-Such-a-mama-bear thoughts
Moderator: Marduk
Interesting that you conflate "conservative" and "Church leadership." I'll hand it to you that the GAs tend to be pretty conservative (although there are certainly Church members who are much more conservative), but I've known plenty of bishops and stake presidents who were fairly moderate, as Mormons go. I'd say that trying to be Christlike is a much more important qualification than being particularly conservative (yes, VB, there IS a differencevorpal blade wrote:I would imagine that the most conservative people in the church – your bishop, stake president, and General Authorities – would be the least likely to assume you are not having children for the wrong reasons.
) and I'd agree that Christlike Church leaders wouldn't hastily judge anyone's decision regarding having children.An assumption that my comments work from:
-The comments are meant only for people who sustain The First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. I say that not as a matter of validating Church membership, but because if you do not believe what they say, then none of my arguments hold any weight. On the other hand, if people believe the words of prophets and apostles, then the substance of my response is validated by their words.
The initial question that spurred this entire conversation is, "Should I be wanting children?" I think anyone who understands the teachings of the gospel and wholeheartedly believes the words of prophets and apostles would emphatically say, "YES!" to this question. There is NO QUESTION as to the Church's doctrine on these grounds: the original commandment the Lord gave to Adam and Eve to "multiply and replenish the earth" is still in effect and is a commandment that prophets and apostles describe as bringing immense joy. Though not wanting to have children is not a sin in and of itself, it will deprive a person of great joy.
How would we answer the question, "Should I want to fast?" or "Should I want to pay my tithing?" or "Should I want to not lie?" or "Should I not want to kill other people in order to gain an advantage in life?" Though each of these poses varying degrees of compliance with the gospel, I am confident that people earnestly trying to live the gospel should want to do those things. When you first begin fasting (and even on throughout your life) you may not want to, but ultimately you should HOPE to want to fast. Someone who grew up in a violent atmosphere or who has some genetic predisposition to murder should work to want to NOT murder. (NOTE: Do NOT argue that these are different because another life is involved. We are NOT discussing whether or not people should have children right away, rather should they DESIRE to have children.) The issue that this questioner faces, in my opinion, is not whether or not she should have children right now, but what she should do in order to be motivated to have children.
I generally try not to catalog or judge people's comments on why they are not having children. However, I agree with Rating Pending's analysis of the questioner's comments. Her words lead one to believe that she views having children as a means of utility in her life, not as a commandment from God that revolves around service. (I also think Rating Pending could have said things differently, but that was HIS answer for which the reader asked.)
The natural (wo)man tendency in us causes us to want a re-assurance that what we're doing or feeling is okay, even though it is not. We want other people to validate the wrong things we do because then we feel like we do not have to change. Often times people attempt to desensitize themselves to feelings of guilt by rationalizing why the way they feel is okay. In Elder Oaks devotional on "Hanging Out and Hooking Up" has an incredibly instructive point. Towards the end, Elder Oaks said that he did not want people to write him because they felt like they were the exception to the rule. He said that he is there to teach the rule, not the exceptions to the rule. If you feel like your circumstances mitigate an exception, then pray about it and let the Lord help you feel absolved.
However, do not seek absolution by merely deciding your circumstances are already the exception and do not bother consulting the Lord about it. Often people rationalize their exceptions without consulting the Lord. Rationalizing your exceptions to the general rules the Lord has set forth is dangerous. By doing so, people begin to mold the gospel into a personal philosophy on life. You are setting yourself up to be a member of the Church who has created a personal religion based off their perception of the world, and not God's. I am confident the Lord will give relief to the people who need it. By going to Him, you demonstrate faith in Him, and decrease the chance of error.
-The comments are meant only for people who sustain The First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. I say that not as a matter of validating Church membership, but because if you do not believe what they say, then none of my arguments hold any weight. On the other hand, if people believe the words of prophets and apostles, then the substance of my response is validated by their words.
The initial question that spurred this entire conversation is, "Should I be wanting children?" I think anyone who understands the teachings of the gospel and wholeheartedly believes the words of prophets and apostles would emphatically say, "YES!" to this question. There is NO QUESTION as to the Church's doctrine on these grounds: the original commandment the Lord gave to Adam and Eve to "multiply and replenish the earth" is still in effect and is a commandment that prophets and apostles describe as bringing immense joy. Though not wanting to have children is not a sin in and of itself, it will deprive a person of great joy.
How would we answer the question, "Should I want to fast?" or "Should I want to pay my tithing?" or "Should I want to not lie?" or "Should I not want to kill other people in order to gain an advantage in life?" Though each of these poses varying degrees of compliance with the gospel, I am confident that people earnestly trying to live the gospel should want to do those things. When you first begin fasting (and even on throughout your life) you may not want to, but ultimately you should HOPE to want to fast. Someone who grew up in a violent atmosphere or who has some genetic predisposition to murder should work to want to NOT murder. (NOTE: Do NOT argue that these are different because another life is involved. We are NOT discussing whether or not people should have children right away, rather should they DESIRE to have children.) The issue that this questioner faces, in my opinion, is not whether or not she should have children right now, but what she should do in order to be motivated to have children.
I generally try not to catalog or judge people's comments on why they are not having children. However, I agree with Rating Pending's analysis of the questioner's comments. Her words lead one to believe that she views having children as a means of utility in her life, not as a commandment from God that revolves around service. (I also think Rating Pending could have said things differently, but that was HIS answer for which the reader asked.)
The natural (wo)man tendency in us causes us to want a re-assurance that what we're doing or feeling is okay, even though it is not. We want other people to validate the wrong things we do because then we feel like we do not have to change. Often times people attempt to desensitize themselves to feelings of guilt by rationalizing why the way they feel is okay. In Elder Oaks devotional on "Hanging Out and Hooking Up" has an incredibly instructive point. Towards the end, Elder Oaks said that he did not want people to write him because they felt like they were the exception to the rule. He said that he is there to teach the rule, not the exceptions to the rule. If you feel like your circumstances mitigate an exception, then pray about it and let the Lord help you feel absolved.
However, do not seek absolution by merely deciding your circumstances are already the exception and do not bother consulting the Lord about it. Often people rationalize their exceptions without consulting the Lord. Rationalizing your exceptions to the general rules the Lord has set forth is dangerous. By doing so, people begin to mold the gospel into a personal philosophy on life. You are setting yourself up to be a member of the Church who has created a personal religion based off their perception of the world, and not God's. I am confident the Lord will give relief to the people who need it. By going to Him, you demonstrate faith in Him, and decrease the chance of error.
Last edited by wired on Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Waldorf and Sauron
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Wired,
I'd like to gently point out (before somebody attacks you for it), that your disclaimers come off as extremely self-righteous. I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but you sound like you think you're a spokesperson for church doctrine. Though you say you're not judging, you firmly imply that those who don't agree with you don't sustain the general authorities, don't honestly want to live the gospel of Jesus Christ, and create their own personal religion.
That said, I agree with your general points, I just don't agree with the way you said it. I think we should strive for those desires to keep the commandments and do good. But certain commandments are harder for some than others. Abraham didn't want to sacrifice Isaac, but his willingness to obey (not his desire to kill his son) was counted as righteousness. The important thing is that we submit our will to the Father, and through our entire lives, our desires will gradually align with His desires.
Love,
Sauron
I'd like to gently point out (before somebody attacks you for it), that your disclaimers come off as extremely self-righteous. I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but you sound like you think you're a spokesperson for church doctrine. Though you say you're not judging, you firmly imply that those who don't agree with you don't sustain the general authorities, don't honestly want to live the gospel of Jesus Christ, and create their own personal religion.
That said, I agree with your general points, I just don't agree with the way you said it. I think we should strive for those desires to keep the commandments and do good. But certain commandments are harder for some than others. Abraham didn't want to sacrifice Isaac, but his willingness to obey (not his desire to kill his son) was counted as righteousness. The important thing is that we submit our will to the Father, and through our entire lives, our desires will gradually align with His desires.
Love,
Sauron
W&S:
I definitely did not intend for them to come off as self-righteous. My intent was to make clear that my comments did not apply to people who thought there was some other purpose for marriage other than what prophets and apostles have taught. Looking back at my disclaimers, they seem more like an indictment of all Church members that they need to give heed to my voice. That wasn't my intent. (I may edit my post to try to reflect that.)
I definitely did not intend for them to come off as self-righteous. My intent was to make clear that my comments did not apply to people who thought there was some other purpose for marriage other than what prophets and apostles have taught. Looking back at my disclaimers, they seem more like an indictment of all Church members that they need to give heed to my voice. That wasn't my intent. (I may edit my post to try to reflect that.)
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Unit of Energy
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Having children is not the only reason to get married. And not wanting children is in no way a sin. Not having children might be, depending on your situation, but not wanting them isn't. I don't want to fast, but if I do and want to want to fast I'm fulfilling my responsibility to obey that commandment.
Children need to be raised in loving families, as per instruction from the prophets. And in order for this to happen, they should not be had simply because it is a commandment to have children. They should be put off until the parents are in a position to love them and care for them. Obviously the couple should be doing what they can to gain a desire to have children, but it is no sin not to have a desire to have children. And when the Lord thinks they are ready He will entrust them with a child whether they think they are ready or not.
Children need to be raised in loving families, as per instruction from the prophets. And in order for this to happen, they should not be had simply because it is a commandment to have children. They should be put off until the parents are in a position to love them and care for them. Obviously the couple should be doing what they can to gain a desire to have children, but it is no sin not to have a desire to have children. And when the Lord thinks they are ready He will entrust them with a child whether they think they are ready or not.
Unit of Energy,
Your post leaves me confused. For instance, you say, "Not having children might be [a sin], depending on your situation, but not wanting them isn't," and then later say, "...[children] should not be had simply because it is a commandment to have children. They should be put off until the parents are in a position to love them and care for them." Under what circumstances would you have children when you do not want them and are not doing it to solely be obedient? (Obviously I am setting aside unplanned pregnancies, which is not what this is about.)
I agree with you that there is no sin. I will also point out though, that if the want for a desire is sincere, the Lord will ultimately bless the person with a change of heart. I firmly believe that about children. If someone earnestly seeks to align himself with the Lord's will and is open to it, the Lord will help him accomplish it.
And while having children is not the only reason to get married, according to many of the prophets and apostles, it is the primary reason for getting married. Another big reason for marriage is to help us perfect ourselves to return to God's presence so we can become like Him. What does God do? Take care of his children. The whole having children thing seems really to be a big (read as: overriding all other aspects) factor in marriage and as a purpose of marriage.
Your post leaves me confused. For instance, you say, "Not having children might be [a sin], depending on your situation, but not wanting them isn't," and then later say, "...[children] should not be had simply because it is a commandment to have children. They should be put off until the parents are in a position to love them and care for them." Under what circumstances would you have children when you do not want them and are not doing it to solely be obedient? (Obviously I am setting aside unplanned pregnancies, which is not what this is about.)
I agree with you that there is no sin. I will also point out though, that if the want for a desire is sincere, the Lord will ultimately bless the person with a change of heart. I firmly believe that about children. If someone earnestly seeks to align himself with the Lord's will and is open to it, the Lord will help him accomplish it.
And while having children is not the only reason to get married, according to many of the prophets and apostles, it is the primary reason for getting married. Another big reason for marriage is to help us perfect ourselves to return to God's presence so we can become like Him. What does God do? Take care of his children. The whole having children thing seems really to be a big (read as: overriding all other aspects) factor in marriage and as a purpose of marriage.
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TheAnswerIs42
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I'm not Unit of Energy, but werf's comment made sense to me. She said that it depended on the situation- meaning that some people are putting their priorities above the Lord's and are hence not being righteous in putting off/not having kids. But for some people they might not be given the desire for kids until they are meant to have them, and hence it isn't a sin. I agree though, some people are cut out for big families, and some people aren't. You shouldn't have big families just because you feel like you are supposed to if you are so miserable that you aren't a good mom to them. Rather counterproductive.
As for "if the want for a desire is sincere, the Lord will ultimately bless the person with a change of heart", I keep hoping that is true. My oldest son is three now, and I still don't feel the emotional attachment to him or his sister that most of my friends feel. Most of my personal prayers include asking for help with this, because I find parenting difficult as a result. But I have come to think that maybe the lack of that desire for kids is just a personal trial I am meant to have. A lot of people have personal tendancies to things that aren't in line with church teachings- homosexual desires they have trouble containing, depression that keeps them from feeling the spirit, etc. So it seems logical to me that some people won't feel the pull toward having children that should follow church teachings.
As for "if the want for a desire is sincere, the Lord will ultimately bless the person with a change of heart", I keep hoping that is true. My oldest son is three now, and I still don't feel the emotional attachment to him or his sister that most of my friends feel. Most of my personal prayers include asking for help with this, because I find parenting difficult as a result. But I have come to think that maybe the lack of that desire for kids is just a personal trial I am meant to have. A lot of people have personal tendancies to things that aren't in line with church teachings- homosexual desires they have trouble containing, depression that keeps them from feeling the spirit, etc. So it seems logical to me that some people won't feel the pull toward having children that should follow church teachings.
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vorpal blade
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My wife and I admire the excellent way young parents in the Church today teach and train their children. We are impressed at how well they handle the stress and strain of parenting. They seem much better prepared to be mothers and fathers than we were. The parents today are loving, kind, patient, but firmly discipline.
I married when I was 26. My wife had just turned 22. Coming from large families we thought we knew something about raising a family. We really didn't know all that much. Neither of us were particularly fond of children. If we didn't have children we thought we wouldn't miss it. We prayed about it and decided that what was right in our particular case was to let God decide if and when we would have children. I don't mean to imply that this is the decision everyone should make, but it seemed right for us. Nine and a half months after we were married we had our first child. We would have liked to have had more time to finish school and adjust to married life, but we were absolutely in awe of the miracle of birth when our first one was born. And we learned to love her through service.
Over the years we had seven children. My life would be diminished significantly without each and every one of them. If we had it to do over again we certainly wouldn't elect to cut out any one of them from our life. My career is nearly over, and as I look back on my life I can honestly say that the only thing that really makes a difference is what I did in the Church, and what I did in my family. And by far the family has been the most significant. My life would be so empty without my children.
Our philosophy might be expressed by what Elder Wirthlin's mother said to him: "Come what may, and love it."
I married when I was 26. My wife had just turned 22. Coming from large families we thought we knew something about raising a family. We really didn't know all that much. Neither of us were particularly fond of children. If we didn't have children we thought we wouldn't miss it. We prayed about it and decided that what was right in our particular case was to let God decide if and when we would have children. I don't mean to imply that this is the decision everyone should make, but it seemed right for us. Nine and a half months after we were married we had our first child. We would have liked to have had more time to finish school and adjust to married life, but we were absolutely in awe of the miracle of birth when our first one was born. And we learned to love her through service.
Over the years we had seven children. My life would be diminished significantly without each and every one of them. If we had it to do over again we certainly wouldn't elect to cut out any one of them from our life. My career is nearly over, and as I look back on my life I can honestly say that the only thing that really makes a difference is what I did in the Church, and what I did in my family. And by far the family has been the most significant. My life would be so empty without my children.
Our philosophy might be expressed by what Elder Wirthlin's mother said to him: "Come what may, and love it."
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Nanti-SARRMM
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Here is something that may or may not give you hope. It's the part at 6:18.bismark wrote:vorpal, you give me hope as a single 25 year old.
This site, and the opinions and statements contained herein do not necessarily reflect on my sanity, or lack thereof.