#52938 Pornography and marriage covenants

[vorpal blade]

Granted, I got married 36 years ago, but I don't recall making an explicit covenant that I wouldn't look at pornography. The writers seem to be in agreement that looking at pornography violates marital trust and covenants. What exactly did I agree to? Are we going to include in this broad category anything "damaging to a marriage?"

Let me list a few things that I find damaging to a marriage. Anger. Selfishness. Name calling. Watching TV or surfing the net, when the house remains dirty. Staying up late to read a novel instead of spending time with your spouse. Spending money foolishly. Thoughtlessness. Putting your children ahead of your spouse. Overeating. Getting out of shape physically. Not supporting your spouse. Not listening to your spouse. Refusing marital intimacy. The silent treatment. Punishing your spouse for not doing what you want him or her to do. Being controlling. Being judgmental. Any really annoying or irritating habit of your spouse.

Are we to bring out the big guns and say that each of these things, and perhaps many more you could list, are betraying the trust in honoring marriage covenants, and we are covenant breakers?

I appreciate Claudio's voice of reason that not all things damaging to a marriage are equally as harmful as adultery.

[Whistler]

I saw the question as one about "marital trust." If he has sincerely repented, he has promised to never look at pornography again. If he's included his wife in the repentance process, then he's made that promise to her, too. Breaking a promise is breaking trust. It doesn't depend on what specific marriage covenants were entered into.

[Darth Fedora]

Well, watching pornography is a straight-up sin, whereas the things you listed aren't so much. Maybe anger and selfishness are, but not so much leaving the house dirty. Anyway, I would say that committing any sexual sin while you're married is an act of infidelity, which is definitely against the most basic covenant of marriage, ie being faithful to each other and no other.

[vorpal blade]

Whistler,

Laser Jock, Kirke, and Cuddlefish saw it as breaking marriage covenants, which is what I'm mostly directing my remarks to. Kirke implies that Claudio says that looking at pornography is covenant-breaking, but I don't really see that in Claudio's comments.

The person who asked the question never said that the hypothetical person promised to stop looking at pornography. He only said that he was making every effort to break the habit. I agree that repentance requires him to completely stop, but some habits cannot be broken in a single day. There is no indication that he has included his wife in the repentance process, and the bishop might not require him to confess his problem to his wife, although he already has. I doubt he would promise his wife something he knew he couldn't deliver, but even if he had I don't see this as an issue of marital trust. Breaking a promise is not breaking trust if you can't help it.

[vorpal blade]

Well, watching pornography is a straight-up sin, whereas the things you listed aren't so much. Maybe anger and selfishness are, but not so much leaving the house dirty. Anyway, I would say that committing any sexual sin while you're married is an act of infidelity, which is definitely against the most basic covenant of marriage, ie being faithful to each other and no other.

I guess I don't see watching pornography as being unfaithful to your spouse. I don't see it as a sexual sin.

Cuddlefish says "It still sends the message to his wife that she's not enough for him and he has to seek somewhere else for satisfaction." That might be the message as received, but it does not necessarily reflect what is really happening. Pornography is not about dissatisfaction with your spouse. It is an addiction to a physical stimulus. The wife might get the same message from a man's addiction to drugs or alcohol, but she would be mistaken.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

I guess I don't see watching pornography as being unfaithful to your spouse. I don't see it as a sexual sin.

But isn't it watching other people get it on, seeing other people in the nude and maybe doing stuff in reaction to it? From what I have read in the Ensign and other sources is that the desire to watch pornography can supersede the desire to be intimate with one's spouse. It can demean it, make it less special. So it is harming the relationship, and breaking the trust that your spouse has for you.

So I think it is a sexual sin. Looking it up on lds.org it says, "Using pornographic material in any way is a violation of a commandment of God: "Thou shalt not . . . commit adultery . . . nor do anything like unto it" (D&C 59:6)."

So from this, it appears that church leaders view it as being unfaithful.

[medievalman]

It still sends the message to his wife that she's not enough for him and he has to seek somewhere else for satisfaction.

Either that or it sends the message that pornography is an incredibly insidious and difficult-to-break addiction despite the best of intentions and attempts at repentance.

[vorpal blade]

Sam,

Pornography can be very harmful to the marriage, as can any addiction. I don't think losing a desire to be intimate with one's spouse is a normal reaction to pornography. Losing a desire to be intimate with a person who is addicted to pornography might be normal.

Drugs and alcohol can supersede the desire to be intimate with one's spouse. In other cases they can increase the desire. I don't think we would call drug and alcohol addiction a sexual sin, though it may have sexual consequences.

An addiction to pornography has a tendency to distort reality and our perception of male-female relationships. It can lead to violence. It can increase one's desire to engage in inappropriate forms of intimate expression. It can make one jaded to normal stimulation and expressions of love. It destroys spirituality as it fosters a preoccupation with the physical, particularly base and prurient interest in the physical. It can objectify others until we think of them only as sexual objects instead of human beings. It can destroy thought and conversation on a plane higher than the animal level. It can destroy the trust your spouse has in you as you mentally and spiritually deteriorate.

Given all that, I still don't see pornography in principle as being unfaithful to your spouse any more than the other things I listed. Of course the effects of pornography are much more severe, and probably quicker acting, but if using pornographic material in any way is like unto adultery, so is PMS like unto adultery.

I always thought the antecedent to "it" in D&C 59:6 was "kill," not "commit adultery."

[vorpal blade]

It still sends the message to his wife that she's not enough for him and he has to seek somewhere else for satisfaction.

Either that or it sends the message that pornography is an incredibly insidious and difficult-to-break addiction despite the best of intentions and attempts at repentance.

Amen, medievalman.

[vorpal blade]

Perhaps I should point out where my knowledge of pornography comes from. I've had a limited amount of direct exposure to it. I've done research on it over a forty year period. I've read several books about it, and many online articles. I once interviewed Dr. Victor Cline, author of the book about pornography called "Where do you draw the line?" I've met with district attorneys and judges who deal with obscenity crimes and picked their brains. I've debated the issue on a college campus at the invitation of a professor. I've debated the issue online. For a seven month period it consumed a lot of my time when the city I live in appointed me the chairman of a committee to draft some city ordinances to deal with pornography issues in our city. I did a lot of research at that time, and wrote dozens of letters to the editor. Nearly once a week I reported my progress to that City Council in public meetings, with a lot of vocal opposition which we debated. We ultimately were very successful. I served for several years as the chairman of a local organization fighting pornography. I've served about 21 years in various callings that required me to sit on disciplinary councils, where I had the opportunity to see how pornography had destroyed lives. I've taken several training sessions for church leaders to inform us of the nature and threat of pornography. I've studied church pamphlets, articles, and instructions.

Other than that, what do I know?

[Cognoscente]

Perhaps I should point out where my knowledge of pornography comes from. I've had a limited amount of direct exposure to it. I've done research on it over a forty year period. I've read several books about it, and many online articles. I once interviewed Dr. Victor Cline, author of the book about pornography called "Where do you draw the line?" I've met with district attorneys and judges who deal with obscenity crimes and picked their brains. I've debated the issue on a college campus at the invitation of a professor. I've debated the issue online. For a seven month period it consumed a lot of my time when the city I live in appointed me the chairman of a committee to draft some city ordinances to deal with pornography issues in our city. I did a lot of research at that time, and wrote dozens of letters to the editor. Nearly once a week I reported my progress to that City Council in public meetings, with a lot of vocal opposition which we debated. We ultimately were very successful. I served for several years as the chairman of a local organization fighting pornography. I've served about 21 years in various callings that required me to sit on disciplinary councils, where I had the opportunity to see how pornography had destroyed lives. I've taken several training sessions for church leaders to inform us of the nature and threat of pornography. I've studied church pamphlets, articles, and instructions.

Other than that, what do I know?

Psh, I can beat that! I wrote my doctorate dissertation on the subject, entitled "Shagging On Camera: Why I Know Everything About Porno." And I used to be roommates with hundreds of "movie" stars. Oh, and I've starred in hundreds of porn movies over the last decade! Since I was 15! My screen name was Richard Longfellow.

Other than that, what do I know?

[Laser Jock]

Vorpal,

It frankly boggles my mind that you don't consider viewing pornography a sexual sin. I usually can sort of see where people are coming from even if I don't agree with them, but I honestly fail to see how you could consider it an asexual sin. (I'm pretty sure we both agree it's a sin.)

Here's one chain of reasoning: Christ said that "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matt. 5:28; see also D&C 63:16 and D&C 42:22-23). Viewing pornography is an obvious example of looking on a woman to lust after her. Since we're told that doing so means that we have "committed adultery already with her in his heart," I don't see any way that this is anything but a sexual sin. (Adultery is obviously a sexual sin.)

As for how this relates to marriage covenants: first, I'd like to establish that it's not just a bunch of anonymous college students who claim that it is. Here are some examples of what general authorities (some of whom were presidents of the Church) have said that I think is relevant. (I'll comment after quoting.)

Be faithful in your marriage covenants in thought, word, and deed. Pornography, flirtations, and unwholesome fantasies erode one’s character and strike at the foundation of a happy marriage. Unity and trust within a marriage are thereby destroyed. One who does not control his thoughts and thus commits adultery in his heart, if he does not repent, shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear (see D&C 42:23; D&C 63:16). ("Being a Righteous Husband and Father," November 1994 Ensign)

The bride and groom come to the house of the Lord professing their love one for another. They enter into solemn and eternal covenants with each other and with the Lord. Their relationship is sealed in an eternal compact. No one expects every marriage to work out perfectly. But one might expect that every marriage in the house of the Lord would carry with it a covenant of loyalty one to another. ("Loyalty," May 2003 Ensign)

If you are married, are you faithful to your wife mentally as well as physically? Are you loyal to your marriage covenants by never engaging in conversation with another woman that you wouldn’t want your wife to overhear? ("Honor the Priesthood and Use It Well," November 2008 Ensign)

We see a rapid increase in cyberporn, involving sexual addiction over the Internet. Some become so addicted to viewing Internet pornography and participating in dangerous online chat rooms that they ignore their marriage covenants and family obligations and often put their employment at risk. Many run afoul of the law. Others develop a tolerance to their perverted behavior, taking ever more risks to feed their immoral addiction. Marriages crumble and relationships fail, as addicts often lose everything of real, eternal value. ("Let Our Voices Be Heard," November 2003 Ensign)

President Hunter warns us to be faithful to our marriage covenants and then his very next sentence starts with "Pornography, flirtations, and unwholesome fantasies". President Hinckley said that every temple marriage carries with it a covenant of loyalty to one another. Elder Richard G. Scott implies that flirting is a violation of marriage covenants--and if that is, isn't pornography more so? And finally, Elder Ballard lists pornography as one reason that some ignore their marriage covenants.

In short, I think it's fairly well-established by both scripture and living prophets that pornography is a sexual sin, a betrayal of your spouse's trust, and a violation of marital covenants.

[vorpal blade]

Laser Jock,

I agree with your quotes, but I am of the same opinion still. Thank you for commenting.

[vorpal blade]

I guess I should at least try to make my perspective – where I am coming from, a little more understandable. I appreciate your point of view, Laser Jock. It just been a long time since I thought of it that way.

There are many different forms of pornography, and it seems to affect different people in different ways. I suppose that those who are unfamiliar with it imagine it as some kind of substitute sex. The assumption is that one is committing adultery in one's heart. There may be some of that, in the beginning. I suspect that for most boys an exposure to pornography begins very early, possibly before puberty. The person might not have willingly exposed himself to it. At any rate an element of curiosity is usually strong from the beginning. There is a kind of sick and perverse fascination with it that can make you physically ill, but strangely shakes you. It is not really a pleasurable feeling, but it is compelling. It doesn't reward you, but instead creates more of an appetite.

As you become more and more addicted there are all kinds of internal battles raging in you for your soul. You feel degraded for looking at it, despite the rationalizations you give for “education,” or “the body is beautiful, and nothing to be ashamed of.” You are driven to search out more and more shocking stuff, and more and more depravity. But there is no joy in this. The difference between pornography and love-making is the difference between hell and heaven. There is no euphoria, no sense of well-being, no real gratification in pornography.

To me, saying pornography is a form of sex is like saying a dentist drilling in your teeth is like kissing. Sure, both involve the mouth, and are rather intimate, but it is not the same.

Since pornography is not at all a substitute for being intimate with your spouse, I don't think of it as anything like being unfaithful to your spouse, or a sexual sin. An addiction to pornography is a very strong compulsion to seek out more images and perverse thoughts, and has nothing at all to do with any possible dissatisfaction you may have with your spouse. To say that a man sends a message to his wife that she is not enough for him when he looks at pornography is like complaining that an episode of clinical depression in a woman means she is breaking marriage covenants and sending a message that her husband is not giving her enough happiness.

[medievalman]

While I don't agree with your views on pornography and it not being a sexual sin (that's not why I'm posting) I definitely see where you're coming from and the logic behind your view here.

Perhaps what I now add is something that you'll agree with me on vorpal. I don't believe you're trying to downplay the negative effects pornography can and does have on the family life/personal life/spiritual life of an individual who is trapped in its clutches. However, with what you're saying it may make people think you are doing just that by not considering it a sexual sin, and if this is true it may rub people the wrong way and create a subconcious false dichotomy for them. This in turn might cause a knee-jerk reaction to say that you're incorrect, that it most certainly is a sexual sin and that you and your views are wrong. But I don't know, its late and I should be in bed rather than posting this here.

[Laser Jock]

Ah, okay, that makes more sense now, Vorpal. I think I can see where you're coming from.

Just in case you were under a misapprehension: I didn't mean to imply that pornography was some sort of substitute sex. I realize that the two are different, and I accept your argument that if one partner in a marriage were addicted to pornography it's not because their spouse "isn't enough for them." However, even though pornography isn't sex, it is (I think) undeniably sexual, and I'd put it as part of the same category of sins.