Communist propaganda

[Puckish Fiend]

Ok, maybe its not propaganda, but I hate it when people wear or use USSR, Che, or Mao garb. While they have every right to express their individuality (or conformity) I have every right to tell them that they are either sick, or ill-informed. Communism as it has been expressed in the twentieth century is the antithesis of personal freedom and responsibility. It would almost be ironic and funny that these people are using capitalism and self expression to promote communist icons, but the fact that these symbols represent the most violent and repressive form of government that the world has ever seen makes it vile and loathsome to me.

So, Marduk, even though I agree with you on many counts, I think your avatar is tasteless.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Che and Mao aside, I think it's unfair to immediately peg anything related to the USSR as "Communist Propaganda." The USSR was a multifaceted, very interesting nation with a lot of good people. Their Stalinist government was a failure, but there are a lot of great things that the soviets did. Again, I think it's unfair to tie the title USSR only to the Stalinist government and not its rich culture, history, and accomplishments. Don't get me wrong, the USSR is not a place I would ever have liked to live, but it's important to see beyond USA: Good—USSR: Evil. We have quite a few skeletons in our closet too.

[Whistler]

Speaking of the USSR, I've heard that Russians themselves think of it fondly. Yes, it's nostalgia for some things that might not have existed, but that's what it means to them now. It's a Baudrillardian thing... say, for example, you grow up only eating artificially-flavored cherry things, like cherry popsicles or cherry cola. Then you eat a real cherry and say "that's not cherry-flavored." Sometimes symbols become so far removed from what they actually represent that the symbol starts to mean something else.

Recently I've been learning about Che, and I agree that his methods were extreme. But to some people, perhaps Marduk included, he represents a dedication to revolution first and your own country second (Marduk can feel free to define his reasons). My point is that sometimes a symbol means something different from what it originally stood for, and maybe that can help us understand each other.

[Marduk]

Ok, let me see if I can help you out here.

It is very myopic to say Che=Communism. That's very far from the truth. (As an aside, I fully get the irony of putting his face on a t-shirt, arguably the symbol of capitalism. That's part of why I do it.) Even if it were the case, Marxism as he was fighting for was never realized. Che regarded Fidel Castro as a traitor to that cause, and felt that he was deeply betrayed after the Cuban revolution.

That aside, the values he was fighting for were individuality and equality, and his icon has superceded whatever he may have been in life. It represents hope to the oppressed, power to the disenfranchised, and wealth to the impoverished. It is the representation of the concept that an idea can change the world. You and I may disagree as to what sort of change is necessary, but the fact that one man can make that much of a difference to humanity says volumes. There's a lot I disagree with his philosophy about, but I certainly respect the violent oppression he tried to become a bastion against.

And whatever else we may say about the man, he believed what he said. He didn't do it to oppress or rule over anyone. As a matter of fact, he was assassinated as a martyr for his cause.

So you'll forgive me if I take umbrage with your characterization, as do many, many millions. There are other views besides the capitalism=God view that we've been so inculcated with here in the U.S.

[Craig Jessop]

There are other views besides the capitalism=God view that we've been so inculcated with here in the U.S.

Don't make me pull Ezra Taft Benson out on you...

[Puckish Fiend]

Their Stalinist government was a failure, but there are a lot of great things that the soviets did.

Failure is not the word I would use for killing more Ukrainians in two years than the Nazis killed in concentration camps in all of WWII. While there was culture and art and other achievements that occurred during the subjugation of these people, it happened despite the attempt to "unify" them. The achievements I see in the USSR came as a result of them moving away from Stalinist communism and toward a system that allows expression of the individual ie. not a United Socialist Soviet Republic. I am interested in hearing what great culture and achievements you say have come as a result of communism.

I know not all communists were heartless murderers and not at Americans are altruistic awesome people. Every culture has evil people and good people, but the main theme of America has been that of trying to allow every person freedom to choose their way in the world. While we struggle with equality even today, at least that is what we are figuratively and literally (however misguided we are at times) are fighting for. This compared with the repeated practical enslavement of people by communism wherever it has been fully expressed is a very black and white contrast that cannot be explained by saying "well, both cultures have good things and bad things".

Don't get me wrong, the USSR is not a place I would ever have liked to live

This is the true test, if Waldorf and Sauron wouldn't want to live there, it must've sucked mightily.

@Whistler/ Marduk I don't know if I agree that Che≠Communist (He did refer to himself as Stalin II) but I think it is apparent that Che=Mass murderer. His history has been very romanticized especially in the recent bio-pics that have been made. The more I learn of Che, the more sure I am that he was a psychopath (I'm speaking in the literal and clinical sense). When he was in charge of executing political prisoners he eventually wasn't able to take part in as many as he would like because of administrative duties. So, he had the wall that was in between his office window and the firing squad torn down so that he could watch while he did his paper work. (I am looking for the first hand documentation of this to share, and I will post when I find it) The only reason I see that he wasn't as bad as Stalin or Mao was that he didn't have the opportunity.

While my first line states that I don't actually believe this form of expression is "propaganda". I just think it is just tasteless to wear symbols that stand for institutionalized mass murder. It is the same reason swastikas are frowned upon in polite company. I just used the title Communist propaganda to lure people in to listen to my soap-box

[Marduk]

So how do you feel about those who slayed massive numbers of Native Americans and then took their land? Or those who shoot Mexicans as they try to cross the border (albeit illegally?) Or Japanese internment camps? Or smallpox infected blankets? Or the Chinese that died building railroads? Or the supporting of countless regimes (both financially and materially) that also engaged in genocides?

If one of your qualifications for a good government is one that never participated in or assisted genocide or mass murder, then the United States is out.

[Whistler]

I feel ignored.

[Puckish Fiend]

@Marduk

I never said the US has a good government. All of those things are stains on the history of this country (I exclude the people who shoot Mexicans the possible exception of the Chinese who died building the railroads. We can make another thread if you want to discuss these.) Even with these blots, I think the US has a better government than any of the aforementioned communist regimes (It is laughable to say otherwise). The fact that you can protest the government without getting shot proves this. The biggest problem in your argument, is that I don't revere those who commuted these atrocities (for the most part it was individuals acting alone, or those with small amounts of power. The internment camps being the exception) like people revere and laud Che.

While the US does have black marks in its past, I think you will be hard pressed to find average Americans who are not ashamed of them. To say that, "well Che wasn't so bad, just look at all the stuff America has pulled", does not change the fact that Che was a monster. When I said mass murder, I prefaced it with "institutionalized", as in, "lets kill all of the people who oppose us politically". The US hasn't done this, and actively fights this type of genocide (although I don't think we should be the world police) all around the world.

While the US Government may not be the amazing thing that some people believe, it is still better than anything else I see out there.

[Puckish Fiend]

Also here is a link with an article with many cited first hand experiences of Che. They were collected and compiled by Humberto Fontova, a Cuban who escaped Cuba with his family in his childhood (his father sacrificed himself so they could make it. The last words he heard his father say were, "Go ahead!....Whatever happens to me, I don't want ya'll growing up here").
Have fun getting to know Che from those who didn't idolize him. http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArt ... ARTID=6946

[Waldorf and Sauron]

How many people do you have to kill before you're a villain?

If Che killed hundreds (according to Glenn Beck), or thousands (according to the article you linked to), then would you agree that we should even more so oppose the heroic commemoration of a man who killed, by the most conservative estimates, hundreds of thousands of people?

Christopher Columbus is such a man. Have fun getting to know Chris from those who didn't idolize him. (Attention Glenn Beck fans: Nazi comparisons!*) http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html

Okay, what's my point? I'm not defending Che — I certainly don't wear those shirts — or Mao, or Communist governments. But history is written by the victors, and I would like to suggest that as we point to the flaws, failures, and atrocities of other governments, we ought to also be critical of our own nation's history. There's a lot to be grateful for in this country, as you well pointed out, but our history books do lionize our own very own Che Guevaras. History is messy. The United States does have a history of institutionalized atrocities, including slavery, mass murder during the Civil War, sponsoring genocidal regimes, and scores of indian massacres.

Here's why I'm bringing these up: I feel like when we harp on the terrible failures of other nations (Nazi Germany, the USSR, Iraq), we do so partially to make us feel okay about our country's actions in comparison. I mean, in the face of Auschwitz, what is Abu Ghraib? So what if we killed thousands of Iraqi civilians—Saddam killed far more. We need to be a lot harder on ourselves than that. When we spend our national discourse harping against past communists, we're distracted from our own serious past and present problems.

* From nytimes: "in the first 14 months of Beck’s Fox News show, Beck and his guests mentioned fascism 172 times, Nazis 134 times, Hitler 115 times, the Holocaust 58 times and Joseph Goebbels 8 times."

[Puckish Fiend]

I think you are preaching to the choir here. Chris Columbus was an ignorant self aggrandizing buffoon. He started slavery in the new world and wanted If you want to blame him for all of the deaths of the Native Americans who died from new diseases, then you should be quoting in the millions. How many of these were from rampant disease against which the natives had no protection (we can't blame these on the Europeans, they had no concept of germs) and how many were from killings, we may never know. We do know that they were brutal, and they treated their fellow man as less than human beings. I do not idolize him, and now that most high schools teach more of his actual history, the next generation won't idolize him. He will be seen as Attila and the Conquistadors as a heartless conqueror.

I have never stated that we should forget the past sins of America, or insinuated such. I have stated though, that the US is a place where we have striven to make men free. It is built into our Constitution and our other founding documents. It is inspired, no matter what your religious leanings, and it changed the world. Our failings aren't and shouldn't be forgotten, but we as a culture have progressed and will hopefully continue to progress towards the ideal society. Our failures have shown us the darkness that can exist even when we strive for the light, and we can and have learned from those things. The fact that we sit here and remember the sordid parts of our history and the sadness it brings us is in itself a sign of hope.

But this in no way means that we can pardon or excuse the atrocities of others. Columbus shouldn't be revered, and this is slowly changing. At the same time Che is the last of the great Communist leaders who is idolized around the world without remembering his atrocities in full light. Why should we remember and discredit Columbus based on his murders and not Che? Was he any less brutal or dehumanizing? Remembering and harping about infatuation of Che and other notorious figures doesn't distract from our serious past and present problems. In fact I see remembering the past as the answer to many of our current problems.

I guess to get back to my point, it is tasteless to wear mass murderers and their symbols. The most common ones we see now-a-days are the communist ones, and that is why I brought it up, but you are correct in saying that we should also name notorious "Americans" whose visages should be bitter to see. This includes Columbus (not technically American, but he is part of our founding mythos), whoever gave out those small pox blankets, and so on. We should also all disdain FDR for the internment camps, Bush for Abu Ghraib, and Obama for his drone attacks. We could go on and on, but I think we all get the point.

Waldorf and Sauron it seems like you have a little Glenn Beck infatuation I guess that puts you in the company with Jon Stewart though. You guys aren't as funny, sorry.

[Puckish Fiend]

P.S. fix your link to indian massacres... it is an interesting read to see the back and forth genocide of the Indians and the Europeans. I love the book Guns, Germs, and Steel it is a must read for understanding the dynamics behind early European and Native conflict.

[krebscout]

I guess that puts you in the company with Jon Stewart though. You guys aren't as funny, sorry.

So that's why we don't have our own show on Comedy Central.

Just so you know, "Waldorf and Sauron" in this forum is really just Sauron. Waldorf is me.

[Puckish Fiend]

Well now I know.

[Cognoscente]

I am interested in hearing what great culture and achievements you say have come as a result of communism.

Zangief dancing with Gorbachev when you beat Street Fighter II:



BAM, done in one! And I never even took debate in high school.

[Marduk]

You don't even need to go that far. Zangief's chest and shin hair alone is a great cultural achievement.

[Puckish Fiend]

But the question you have to ask there, is was it genetically inherited from his mom. I think his hair is genetic, so unless he was the product of secret soviet breeding experiments(that sounds ominous), I don't think it counts.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Anyway, happy Columbus Day.

[Puckish Fiend]

What a thread killer...