#61430- Singleton responses

[melbabi]

Did anyone else wonder if she is 19?? She said that she had been dealing with this for a year and a half, which makes me think she might be a sophomore. I understand that she is extremely committed to getting married, but I was just wondering if maybe she was getting these responses in part because of her age. I realize that many, many students get married at that age or younger but I am also aware that in my hometown (outside of Utah), getting married before 21 is not looked highly upon, even among the LDS members which may be why she is getting those reactions. Or maybe they really are feminists (which I loved Hypatia's response to that, seeing as I am feminist as well) and maybe their intent was to try to get her to see that while marriage is a great goal to have, it might also be wise to have a 'just in case' life plan.

[Tao]

A very good hypothesis, I'd say, though it could also be that a year and a half ago she had a significant incident along these lines and has thus been sensitive to it since then.

And while this may just be due to my recent philosophical studies, may I ask what exactly you mean when you describe yourself as a feminist? The word had plenty of variation in its connotations, and admittedly I'm prone to think poorly of any '-ists'; mentally assigning the 'feminist' as the XX counterpart to the 'male chauvinist'.

[Katya]

helpful link: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/61430/

I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall for these conversations, because I don't see how they could have come about unless she was being pretty strident in the way she shared her views.

may I ask what exactly you mean when you describe yourself as a feminist?

Feminism is the radical idea that women are people. (That's my preferred definition, at least.)

[vorpal blade]

I've never met a person who thought women were not people. I've met women, however, who thought men were sub-human.

[C is for]

I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall for these conversations, because I don't see how they could have come about unless she was being pretty strident in the way she shared her views.

Though having people tell her that marriage "isn't worth her time" doesn't sound like a very normal response to "I can't wait to get married" or whatever this young lady was saying that would be so strident. Even "Marriage is the best thing ever, I'm so excited for it, why aren't you?" doesn't seem to justify that response.

Also, nothing this singleton said struck me that she doesn't think women are people. I don't think that is the definition she was using.

[Katya]

Also, nothing this singleton said struck me that she doesn't think women are people. I don't think that is the definition she was using.

No, clearly not. But Hypatia pointed out that the singleton used "feminist" as a derogatory term, and implicitly equated feminists with marriage-haters, so I followed up by putting forth an alternate definition of the term.

[TheBlackSheep]

I had the same reaction as Katya. "Feminist" should not be an insult, and that's what the word means to me, too.

Also, Singleton must have the worst luck on the entire planet. I was the biggest feminist I knew while I was at BYU, but I don't have the views that her roommates/friends/professors have, and I certainly would never have expressed them that way.

[vorpal blade]

What Singleton says is just what my daughters have said they have heard their female professors say at BYU.

I'm thinking my new definition of a feminist is going to be a person who thinks some men believe that women are not people.

[Laser Jock]

The word had plenty of variation in its connotations, and admittedly I'm prone to think poorly of any '-ists'; mentally assigning the 'feminist' as the XX counterpart to the 'male chauvinist'.

This does a pretty good job of describing my first mental impression when I hear that someone's a feminist. I understand that there are many 'varieties' of feminists, but the radical ones are the ones that get the most attention...and thus the ones I think of first. I try to temper that, but my first reaction is still not favorable.

(And lest anyone get the wrong impression, I very much think women are people, as Katya sarcastically put it, and I believe in respecting and honoring them. Hopefully that comes across in my answers, too. And I also know that women's status in society has been advanced by feminists promoting things like women's suffrage and so on. But I still think of radicals when I think of feminists. So maybe you feminists aren't doing yourselves a favor by using that term to describe your views? I've heard plenty of other people who have roughly the same feelings about the term that I do.)

[Katya]

So maybe you feminists aren't doing yourselves a favor by using that term to describe your views?

Or maybe we need to be more vocal so that our type of feminism is more widely known.

[Tao]

may I ask what exactly you mean when you describe yourself as a feminist?

Feminism is the radical idea that women are people. (That's my preferred definition, at least.)

So, with this definition, who then is not a feminist? I know a wonderful traditional Muslim family that would qualify to be painted with such a broad brush. Yet somehow I imagine that most 'feminists' would take umbrage with a fellow feminist following Muslim customs regarding dress.

I see it akin to calling all who use language in one form or another 'linguists'. When your description is so broad to be nigh all-inclusive, what purpose does it serve?

"Feminist" should not be an insult, and that's [Katya's definition] what the word means to me, too.

... I was the biggest feminist I knew while I was at BYU,...

Case in point. How do you take a superlative of those who believe women are people? "One whose belief that women are people supersedes all others"? "One who believes women are more people than others"? "Everyone not me believes that women are less people than I do"?

[Katya]

may I ask what exactly you mean when you describe yourself as a feminist?

Feminism is the radical idea that women are people. (That's my preferred definition, at least.)

So, with this definition, who then is not a feminist?

People who don't treat women as people. Which moves the discussion into the arena of what it means to be treated like a person.

[Tao]

So, with this definition, who then is not a feminist?

People who don't treat women as people. Which moves the discussion into the arena of what it means to be treated like a person.

Not really. I'm willing to take that as a given for now; as I'm still stuck on the thought that the title inherently means more than your definition. Such a title would be akin to stating "I'm an acreutzfeldt–jakobite" by one who doesn't have mad cow disease.

And I apologize for the edit on my last post, trying to keep things streamlined.

[Laser Jock]

So maybe you feminists aren't doing yourselves a favor by using that term to describe your views?

Or maybe we need to be more vocal so that our type of feminism is more widely known.

Possibly. On the other hand, I could call myself a "fundamentalist Mormon" because I believe in the Book of Mormon and in modern prophets and such, but that would just get people thinking I believed in polygamy too (because that's one of the main things that label usually connotes).

I think I might be kinda with Tao on this. By your definition of what it means to be a feminist, only misogynists aren't feminists, right? So why use the label at all, if it applies to almost everyone? (Most people don't go around proudly proclaiming "I'm a eukaryote!")

However, I think this does depend, as you said, on what it means to consider women people. Clearly I don't know what you mean by that, so please enlighten me.

[Marduk]

LJ, I announce my eukaryote status all the time. Just sayin'.

I think a more adequate definition (as the one Katya gave was merely flippant, and not really intended to be workable) would be that a feminist is "one who believes that a woman should have every right and priviledge bestowed to a man under similar circumstances." And while almost everyone would agree with this in theory, many don't believe it when it actually comes to practice (myself included, but usually for logistical reasons rather than misogynistic ones.)

[wired]

All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

http://www.theboardboard.org/viewtopic. ... t=feminism


And to elaborate, last time we discussed this it seemed many people retained Katya's view on what "feminist" means and i conceded the argument on those grounds. But, if popular designation pegs feminism as different, I think Katya, et al's use of it is a poor choice.

Katya seems to support feminism as a very broad category of thought, similar to "religious" or "ethical." They're broad terms without an actual ideology affixed. The term feminist as I see it most commonly used (2nd wave feminists that and Sauron taught us about in his response to my Board question) would more likely result in the term being used in an insulting manner.

[Imogen]

fem·i·nism
   /ˈfɛməˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fem-uh-niz-uhm]
–noun
1.the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.


being a feminist is nothing to be ashamed of, and i'm proud to call myself one. i'm also anxious to get married and have kids. being a feminist is not mutually exclusive of a desire to marry. in fact, my favorite feminist blogger, jessica valenti, is married.

and vorpal, have you met men who think women are sub-human? or their victims? because i have, and every time i see a woman who was abused by a man because he didn't respect her person-hood, it makes me MORE feminist. or when a student refuses to respect me because he is taught at home that women don't need to be respected.

radicals ALWAYS get more air time. look at the westboro baptist church. most baptists are not so mean spirited, but the wbc gets a lot of airtime because of their radical behavior.

and muslim women can be feminist and still wear hijab. hijab is a very personal decision for a muslim woman in the west, though not in the middle east.

[krebscout]

All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

woooo bsg

[Tao]

Heh, if we want to stick to pure definitions, then neither is chauvinist an insult:

chauvinism n. plural chauvinisms, see also chauvinist

1. Excessive patriotism, eagerness for national superiority; jingoism.

*** personal goal: use jingoism in proper context this week. ***

What I'm getting at is that while the term has as many meanings as it has users, any non-extreme usage is so watered down that it loses its position as a descriptor. Thus, adopting the title is affecting an air of extremism, and those who chose to do so should not be surprised when that is the interpretation others take.

[Marduk]

I'd just like to point out, at this point, that we are all discussing things irrelevant to the question. If you go back and read, Singleton points out that she has been arguing with feminsits, not feminists. What we really need to find out is just what a feminsit is.