61906?

[UnluckyStuntman]

Lastly, and this is controversial, I don't know if I can completely agree that with Brother Bott "that repentance makes you a new person, and you should no longer identify with the old person of sin." Eventually, after the resurrection, I'm sure this is true. But while we are still in this life? I know this sounds heretical, but I recently heard from a good source (can't remember the source) that sin leaves scars. There are consequences to sinful behavior that may not be removed in this life. I don't agree with the idea that we can be immoral before marriage, repent, and it is just as though the sin had never taken place.

I think that this concept can be applied well to drug addiction, actually. Substances of abuse change you physiologically, emotionally, and cognitively. You will never be the same as your were pre-addiction and there are many lasting effects (like residual cravings, etc.). Whether this concept can be applied to other behaviors, such as infidelity during marriage, or not, I don't know, but I think that Vorpal makes a very good point.

[Sharona Fleming]

Oh man, I needed a spoiler alert, Yarjka.

Levin and Kitty do end up together?! I'm only a couple hundred pages into it, but Anna Karenina certainly does make one think about topics such as this, no?

[Yarjka]

Oh man, I needed a spoiler alert, Yarjka.

Levin and Kitty do end up together?! I'm only a couple hundred pages into it, but Anna Karenina certainly does make one think about topics such as this, no?

I'm so sorry!! I sometimes forget that not everyone has read it... I've added a spoiler alert to save others from that fate and I won't tell you what happens to Anna, either.

ETA: I just realized how stupid it is to add a spoiler alert to something we discuss later in the thread .... I think the cat (kitty) is out of the bag. Spoiler alert removed.

[C is for]

I just got back from my marriage prep class. We talked about exactly this discussion. I kept wanting to raise my hand and say "My BYU friends and I have been discussing this lately..." but every time I went to he called on someone else.

Anyway! I came away from it with more personal application for my life than substantive answers for the topic, but we still talked about some things, which I will now share for you:

We started by reading in Genesis 2, how Adam and Eve were created as equal partners and were naked and unashamed. In this case, the teacher applied nakedness to complete honesty. We have to be honest in a marriage relationship.

Then we discussed whether the "innocent" one should ask, or whether the "perpetrator" should bring it up. (Quotation marks entirely mine; we used "girl" and "boy" in class but since that didn't fit with the original question I came up with some more offensive ones.) My teacher was very adamant that it should be brought up and not pried out.

Like MSJ said, though, be honest but nonspecific. Don't give details. That's not necessary.

The most important thing is to use personal revelation. Pray to be told when to bring it up; pray to know if it's necessary to ask! Be conscious of the promptings of the Spirit for timing, how much to say, and how to say it. That was huge.

So, this is pretty close to what my opinion was previously; that it needs to be brought up -- at least, I would want to know. When and how is on a case-by-case basis, but before marriage please.

And what I ended up applying to my life is this: I consider myself pretty morally clean. I am not planning to have to bring up especially many weighty secrets to my fiance/boyfriend/husband. But what I need to do is make sure I have a strong testimony of the Atonement, so that if/when my fiance/boyfriend/husband brings up weighty secrets to me, I can accept that he's repented, that he won't do things like that again, and that we can move forward in faith. I don't think I'll be able to stop myself from being more watchful in case the habit recurs, but I'm going to have faith that I can still trust him, because of our faith in the Savior.

I just read this question in the archives. How timely.

[NerdGirl]

Lastly, and this is controversial, I don't know if I can completely agree that with Brother Bott "that repentance makes you a new person, and you should no longer identify with the old person of sin." Eventually, after the resurrection, I'm sure this is true. But while we are still in this life? I know this sounds heretical, but I recently heard from a good source (can't remember the source) that sin leaves scars. There are consequences to sinful behavior that may not be removed in this life. I don't agree with the idea that we can be immoral before marriage, repent, and it is just as though the sin had never taken place.

I think that this concept can be applied well to drug addiction, actually. Substances of abuse change you physiologically, emotionally, and cognitively. You will never be the same as your were pre-addiction and there are many lasting effects (like residual cravings, etc.). Whether this concept can be applied to other behaviors, such as infidelity during marriage, or not, I don't know, but I think that Vorpal makes a very good point.

Yeah, very interesting thoughts.

And regarding not wanting to marry someone who's been married before - I could understand not wanting to get involved with someone whose own actions (like adultery or abuse) had broken up their marriage. That's kind of a bad precedent. But my dad was divorced before he married my mom, and without going into all of the details, it was entirely his ex-wife's fault (although they parted amicably). He's now been happily married to my mom for almost 30 years. And some people just get married way too young or without knowing each other well enough. That doesn't mean they're incapable of ever making a marriage work. The other thing I wonder about is, what about widows/widowers? There was a girl in my ward about 15 years ago who went to BYU and got married in the temple and her husband died in a car accident on the way home from the reception that they had up here. So I just wonder how people who don't want to marry someone who's been married before or who's not a virgin would feel about someone like that. (She did end up getting remarried a couple of years later and now has lots of cute little boys.)

[melbabi]

Gah, I'm already nervous typing this and I don't even know most of you in real life... This topic is a minor part as to why I am hesitant to go back to church. Yes everyone, I am not going to church and haven't since May. And according to the LDS religion I have made 'mistakes' that honestly, I don't feel bad about right now. However, as I have been assessing my beliefs I have realized that if I were ever to go back to the church, I would feel extremely judged. That's probably just me thinking that but I know in the past, I judged others based on what I knew their past was. I look back on that with regret to be honest. But I know that if I did that, I'm sure there are others as well (and I know some that do think that way). As a result, this is a sensitive topic for me. I think that vorpal is right though, if I do decide to go back, it will have a tremendous impact on me throughout my life. It does worry me, especially in regards to the question that C is for linked. If he had such a hard time with that even though he loved her and she repented, then if I came back, would people still accept me? Sigh... I have my doubts. Sorry if this was way too personal for anyone or if anyone felt uncomfortable, these are just my present thoughts concerning the matter.

[Marduk]

I am glad that you feel comfortable enough with us to be able to share that. It certainly is hard to share personal details, but I think it can be helpful for others. And here's to hoping that whatever decision you eventually make you will be happy with.

[Tao]

Eh, I had the opportunity to be on the other end of the stick, and can say that being told of past activities in no way negatively affected the relationship. On the contrary, it was a significant weight off of her shoulders, which opened up the relationship even more. That being said, once some boundaries have been crossed, it can be harder to maintain them, so it often fell to me to be drawing the line as for how far was 'too far'. Was she clean of her past? Absolutely yes, morally. Did that mean it was as if nothing had happened? No, and knowing that made things easier for the both of us. As I saw it, it was the individual as a whole at that moment that I was interested in. She who had made those decisions, yes, but had also taken the necessary steps to rectify her actions and also cared for me enough to let me know. Our pasts help make us unique, sure, but it is the individual in the now that matters.

Only you know you and your situation well enough to make such a call. And once made, it is entirely the choice of the other individual if they want to react negatively about it.

[Katya]

Gah, I'm already nervous typing this and I don't even know most of you in real life... This topic is a minor part as to why I am hesitant to go back to church. Yes everyone, I am not going to church and haven't since May. And according to the LDS religion I have made 'mistakes' that honestly, I don't feel bad about right now. However, as I have been assessing my beliefs I have realized that if I were ever to go back to the church, I would feel extremely judged. That's probably just me thinking that but I know in the past, I judged others based on what I knew their past was. I look back on that with regret to be honest. But I know that if I did that, I'm sure there are others as well (and I know some that do think that way). As a result, this is a sensitive topic for me. I think that vorpal is right though, if I do decide to go back, it will have a tremendous impact on me throughout my life. It does worry me, especially in regards to the question that C is for linked. If he had such a hard time with that even though he loved her and she repented, then if I came back, would people still accept me? Sigh... I have my doubts. Sorry if this was way too personal for anyone or if anyone felt uncomfortable, these are just my present thoughts concerning the matter.

Most people start out life pretty judgmental. (Putting people and things in categories and ranking those categories are very natural human behaviors.) Some people overcome it through the patient teaching of parents and other leaders. Some overcome it through observation of and empathy with those who are different from them. And some overcome it through life experience, by realizing that they have become that which they wrongly judged. The last way is definitely the hardest, but it's also the most transformative. (It's also why Christ had to suffer for all of our sins and sadness and grief and pain—so that he would genuinely know what we are going through.)

The good news is that life experience naturally tends to make us less judgmental, so your peers won't always be as judgmental as they are now. (And you might want to consider attending a family ward instead of a singles ward, if you find the atmosphere preferable.)

Oddly enough, as an adult, the most important takeaway from a Church meeting is just the same as it is for the Sunbeams: You are of worth and you are loved. If you decide to return, I hope that you can focus on those messages and tune out the judgmental ones, as you decide where you want to go with your life.

[Laser Jock]

melbabi, I appreciate that you felt comfortable enough to share here, and I hope you know I'm not judging you (and it doesn't sound like anyone else here is either). I have a friend who I found out had made some mistakes in her past. When she told me about them I was a little surprised, but it didn't make me think less of her; she'd clearly repented and I knew her as a very amazing person who was dedicated to the gospel. In fact, I think the trust evidenced by her telling me strengthened the friendship, not weakened it. I'm not saying you just go around telling everyone, but I think you would be surprised how many people will be understanding, if you do choose to tell them.

[Emiliana]

I'm not saying you just go around telling everyone, but I think you would be surprised how many people will be understanding, if you do choose to tell them.

I think things work a bit differently in the Mormon church than they do in my circles, but I am a HUGE believer in confession. James says, "Confess your sins to one another, that you might be healed," and I've found that extremely true. If there is another person in your life who knows the worst there is to know about you, and loves you anyway, it's a lot easier to understand how God can still love you, too. That brings a huge amount of spiritual healing.

There are a total of two people who know about the biggest mistakes I've made in my life, and I would say that both relationships are a lot stronger because I was able to talk about it.

[vorpal blade]

I'll second Emiliana's opinion.

[Katya]

And according to the LDS religion I have made 'mistakes' that honestly, I don't feel bad about right now.

Did you all miss this part? It's one thing to return to a community to set right what you feel was a mistake. It's another thing to return to a community that believes you made a mistake, when you don't agree.

[TheBlackSheep]

Exactly. melbabi and I are friends in real life, and forgive me if I'm talking for you, melbabi, but I think it's more of an issue that she doesn't feel like she's done anything wrong, so the thought of being judged for it makes it doubly hard to contemplate.

Though I also agree about the power of confession. I cannot express what being more open has done for my mental health.

...But there were jerks along the way, too, who made it hard. Make it hard. So the fear is not unfounded.

[NerdGirl]

Honestly, I think there needs to be more space in the Mormon church for people who maybe don't quite feel the same way about the whole thing as the majority does. Melbabi, if you think coming back to church is something that would meet a need for you (even if you don't believe in the church's truth claims in the same way most people do, or believe in the same list of sins as the church does), and you could deal with the judgment, then I think you shouldn't let it stop you from coming back. I, for one, am happy to see people like you at church (I know I don't know the details of your situation, but I know enough people in a variety of situations that could fit what you're describing that I'm sure I know someone similar to you). True-believing orthodox Mormons don't have a monopoly on church attendance, and some of them need to be reminded of that from time to time. If going back to church is something you want, don't let anyone stop you and don't feel like you have to wait until you feel differently about whatever is that you don't feel is a mistake. Some people won't accept you, but I hope that many will, and I'm sure that you'll discover others who are in very similar situations to yours and knowing them might become a great thing for all involved.

[melbabi]

I hear what you all are saying, and at the same time I still wonder. Yes, I probably was/am super judgy and I have been working on that, this experience has helped a lot with that. And another issue is that once I told my roommate that I stopped going to church (cuz she didn't notice even though it has been three months and it came up in our convo because she asked me if I had prayed about the issue we were discussing), that was when I became her 'project.' And I hated it. I've done it to others so I am well aware of what it looks like but writing me notes when you never have before and inviting me to church is not going to change me. It just irritates me. Yes, I did tell her to knock it off (in a nicer way) but then she got my other roommate to make me her project. And the bishopric told my roommate/best friend that she should not be supporting me in my inactivity. I don't really know what he meant by that because she tells me I can make my own decisions and she'll love me no matter what so if that's 'supporting' then I have issues with that. So it's things like that that make me really not want to go back. Maybe that's childish of me but they seem sneaky and slightly manipulative. This is the founded fear TBS was talking about, for me at least.

Anyway, getting back to the original question, I think that if I were ever to go back and start to actually feel guilty, it would be extremely difficult for me to tell someone, even someone I loved. Right now I have a hard time with my Mormon friends because they have said some hurtful things to me about it, like calling me names. Which is why I think this is such a difficult topic. Hopefully your friends will still love you and care for you but that's unfortunately not always the case.

I think I might have more to say on this but it's late and I'm exhausted so I'll maybe add more later. And I'll probably have to clarify some as I'm not sure all of this makes sense.

[TheBlackSheep]

mel, I hear you on that one. There are parts of my life that are only open to non-/former Mormons. Well, and my awesome cousin of light and grandeur who will probably always hold the record for shortest Board writership. No need to open yourself up to that stuff, which in a perfect world wouldn't exist, but it does exist in ours, unfortunately.

[Marduk]

Not to criticize, Black Sheep, but isn't that style of being closed to members of a particular religion precisely the sort of closed-mindedness that you're preaching against?

[Katya]

Not to criticize, Black Sheep, but isn't that style of being closed to members of a particular religion precisely the sort of closed-mindedness that you're preaching against?

I read it more as there are parts of her life that are only open to sympathetic listeners.

[Craig Jessop]

Not to criticize, Black Sheep, but isn't that style of being closed to members of a particular religion precisely the sort of closed-mindedness that you're preaching against?

I read it more as there are parts of her life that are only open to sympathetic listeners.

That's how I read it too, and I totally understand. There are some things that, bless their hearts, my everfaithful home teachers just wouldn't understand.