BYU pauper babies

[Portia]

longer post to come ... keeps coming out wrong.

Jist of it, babies aren't cute accessories to feed with fairy dust, or a job because you can't really think of anything else you want to do. TAMN on Seriously, So Blessed! did a better send-up of this than I ever could have.

[Craig Jessop]

We had a huge discussion about this in one of my classes last semester, and by and large the vast majority of people with pauper babies had one for legitimate reasons. Actually, not one person out of the over 50% of my class with a pauper baby had a kid for any reason other than love and a legitimate desire to start a family. I don't think that your lack of acknowledgment that anybody in Mormon culture could be legitimately altruistic or have sincere, well-thought-out, and non-brainwashed motives is any reason to judge them for it. It's funny how those who judge those questioning a mother's decision to have a child out of wedlock (accidentally or purposely) are among the very first to condemn parents choosing to have children in the way God planned for it to happen.

[mic0]

Sorry, but what is a pauper baby?

[Dragon Lady]

My guess is a baby born to a very poor family?

[Craig Jessop]

I think it's babies born to young, LDS families who, by the world's standards, can't afford to have one.

[Rifka]

I was a "pauper baby". So were my seven siblings. My dad didn't finish his Phd until I was ten, all eight of us were born, and my mom was forty-two. If my parents had waited until they could "afford" to have children, most likely none of the eight of us would exist. I'm grateful my parents had the faith and courage to start a family, even though they were on a very tight budget. They had to sacrifice a lot for us, but it all worked out in the end. I understand that from a purely logistical view, the worry that "pauper" babies will become a strain on the welfare system, government, etc., but there comes a time that a couple has to take a leap of faith. After all, people in our society take a leap of faith all the time-- to start a business, to go to grad school, to marry the person they fall in love with, etc. All those things take a leap of faith. If it's okay to take a leap of faith to do those things, why isn't it okay to take a leap of faith and have kids when you feel it's right?

[TheAnswerIs42]

Leaps of faith are one thing. Depending on the safety net of welfare so much that you never try to jump on your own is another. Some of that is semantics and attitude, but I think that's what makes other people upset.

[Rifka]

Good point, 42. I forgot to clarify that there is a difference between really not being able to afford a baby and thinking you can't afford one when you might be able to really sacrifice and make it work. I have definitely seen people who had babies they could not care for, and probably should not have had. However, I have also seen many people who think they can't afford a child, but probably could if they were willing to sacrifice more.

[mic0]

So, what we're saying is maybe everyone needs to decide for themselves and it is hard to judge others on their decisions?

I generally think it is a bad idea to have children while still in college when neither person has a full-time job. That being said, people do what they do, and most of these people aren't going to be so destitute that they can't find a way to make things work. (I know, that was basically a non-opinion.)

[Tao]

I have definitely seen people who had babies they could not care for, and probably should not have had. However, I have also seen many people who think they can't afford a child, but probably could if they were willing to sacrifice more.

I'm intrigued. At what point is a couple (or individual) at the point where they cannot care for their child to the point where they should not have had it?

While I can conceptually imagine such a point, I don't know if it can or does occur in the United States.

[Digit]

I have definitely seen people who had babies they could not care for, and probably should not have had. However, I have also seen many people who think they can't afford a child, but probably could if they were willing to sacrifice more.

I'm intrigued. At what point is a couple (or individual) at the point where they cannot care for their child to the point where they should not have had it?

While I can conceptually imagine such a point, I don't know if it can or does occur in the United States.

Ask Nadya Suleman, from California.

[Imogen]

I have definitely seen people who had babies they could not care for, and probably should not have had. However, I have also seen many people who think they can't afford a child, but probably could if they were willing to sacrifice more.

I'm intrigued. At what point is a couple (or individual) at the point where they cannot care for their child to the point where they should not have had it?

While I can conceptually imagine such a point, I don't know if it can or does occur in the United States.

I'd say anyone without sufficient income to pay their own rent with no help from parents or others can't afford a child. And I know plenty of people like that who have children that their parents are basically paying for. If you're still asking your parents for money or you know you aren't ready to make sacrifices for kids, then don't have them. I know I'm not ready to sacrifice things like cable or going out with my friends yet, so i'm not ready for kids.

[krebscout]

So what about going into debt?

[Imogen]

So what about going into debt?

i think if you go in with a clear plan as to how you're going to pay things off (like you set up a budget before taking out a loan so you know what you can afford to make as payments) then you're ok. but if you have no clue about how you're going to pay off the debt, then you should do ANYTHING that involves going into debt, whether it's having a kid or buying a house or going to college.

[krebscout]

[ANYTHING that involves going into debt, whether it's having a kid or buying a house or going to college.

Wait - since when does a kid involve going into debt?

Anyway, I was trying to make a point with this debt thing, but I'm not going there anymore. Basically, I have to ask...who on earth have you met who treats babies like accessories, or hobbies? And who the crap are you to assess the situation? How do you know it wasn't an unexpected pregnancy, or that they don't have a job lined up, or whatever else it would take to get your permission for somebody else to reproduce?

This apparently strikes a nerve of mine. Obviously I have babies, and I'm poor. And the idea of somebody thinking that I feel my babies are "cute accessories to feed with fairy dust, or a job because can't really think of anything else want to do," really ticks me off.

[Imogen]

[ANYTHING that involves going into debt, whether it's having a kid or buying a house or going to college.

Wait - since when does a kid involve going into debt?

Anyway, I was trying to make a point with this debt thing, but I'm not going there anymore. Basically, I have to ask...who on earth have you met who treats babies like accessories, or hobbies? And who the crap are you to assess the situation? How do you know it wasn't an unexpected pregnancy, or that they don't have a job lined up, or whatever else it would take to get your permission for somebody else to reproduce?

This apparently strikes a nerve of mine. Obviously I have babies, and I'm poor. And the idea of somebody thinking that I feel my babies are "cute accessories to feed with fairy dust, or a job because can't really think of anything else want to do," really ticks me off.

my nieces mom. she has 9 kids with three different dads and once they're no long in the "cute infant stage" she ignores them. this includes my niece. my mom wanted to take her, but she was still raising me at the time and working. my brother is a total loser, so he's not an option. so my niece has had to suffer because her mom liked having babies, but not children. thankfully, my niece is naturally resilient and is incredibly intelligent and hasn't followed the path of her older siblings, who are repeating the cycle of teen pregnancy and ignoring their now toddler aged children.

i know someone on the board mentioned they went on government assistance in order to have a child. i don't remember who it was. that's totally insane to me. i'm sure they're off of it now, but it is VERY common where i live for someone to go on government assistance, have a kid or two, and never get off of it. i had a coworker whose aunt told her kids to hurry up and get pregnant so they could get their own welfare checks (this happened in my presence, btw.)

this may not be common, and i obviously don't go up to strangers on the street and say "NO YOU CAN'T HAVE BABIES!!!" but i see things like this happening in my town enough that it makes me wary of ANYONE having babies who truly can't afford it or plans to use government assistance with no end in sight.

and krebscout, while i'm sure you guys are struggling financially because your husband is in school (and higher education is so expensive, hence why i'm holding off on getting my masters), i do wonder what YOU mean by poor. i've realized people often have different definitions of it. i've worked with some people who are in EXTREME poverty. like "if i pay the light bill i can't pay the electric bill because the only job i can find doesn't pay hardly anything" kind of poverty. that's what i think of when i think of someone being poor. many of them would probably envy you because you can stay home with your kids instead of having to work full time outside the home. that would seem like a great luxury to them (and honestly, it does to me too because i only had my mom at home, and she obviously had to work).

[Marduk]

Hey guys look! Portia said something inflammatory and then ran away!

Also, Imogen, I agree that most folks don't really know what poor is. However, unless someone is homeless, poverty in this country is usually never to an unmanageable level; it really is about budgeting well and living within your means. I've seen households that have only one parent working, and that parent is making minimum wage, who still manage to pay all their bills.

I think we can agree on a caveat here: one should never have children unless one is prepared to care for the child, emotionally, physically, mentally, materially, and spiritually.

[Dragon Lady]

While I agree with your definition of poor in general, Imogen, for this specific thread we're talking about BYU pauper babies. And most couples attending BYU do not fall under that definition of poor. At least not enough to create a stereotype. My guess is that Portia is talking about BYU students where at least one parent is at BYU, typically living off a student salary, grants, scholarships and loans. Or off their parents' generosity.

And for what it's worth, the writer you were talking about was Claudio. And they were the typical BYU poor and wanted to start their family. And they knew they'd be poor for years because he had to finish at BYU, then do med school. So they took advantage of the welfare program to help fund their babies. But they also have a plan to get out of debt. They are super frugal. Like repairing a washer with duct tape. Like using cloth diapers. The pre-fold kind, not the fancy kind. Like planting their own tomatoes. Like home schooling. Like couponing. They have a plan to live as frugally as possible so that Mrs. Claudio can stay home and focus on their kids while Claudio is in med school (where he is currently excelling) until he graduates and can get a job and pay back their debts. They were going to be "poor" for probably a decade and didn't want to wait that long to start a family and so they chose to use what resources were available to them to start said family with a plan to get out of it in the future. So while that may be a common irresponsible thing where you are, it's not a common irresponsible thing at BYU. Most people who go on welfare while in college are working towards a bigger and brighter future and have a plan to get off welfare. Not all, I'm sure. But most. So please don't judge Claudio and his family too harshly. They are not the same type of folk you're used to seeing.

[krebscout]

Imogen, you're right that I've lived comfortably my whole life. My irritation is directed at Portia's initial post, not at you. Like DL pointed out, I'm the same amount of poor as the other students being judged for having babies. I share my husband's grad student debt. We have always been under the poverty level. I stay at home with my children, and I also work from home. I own my own (very) small business and I illustrate part-time. It's supposed to take twenty hours a week, though I have a hard time making that many hours. I would have a job outside the home if I wasn't working inside it, but thankfully this way we don't have the expense of daycare.

So...we're poor by that definition?

I'm pretty sheltered from real poverty and real irresponsibility. I fully believe you. But I'm trying to figure out where on BYU campus Portia met parents like that....so maybe I shouldn't have said, "where on earth."

[TheBlackSheep]

I have definitely seen people who had babies they could not care for, and probably should not have had. However, I have also seen many people who think they can't afford a child, but probably could if they were willing to sacrifice more.

I'm intrigued. At what point is a couple (or individual) at the point where they cannot care for their child to the point where they should not have had it?

While I can conceptually imagine such a point, I don't know if it can or does occur in the United States.

Uh, this sounds like... oh, 100% of the kids I work with. Maybe only 80% at the time the kiddos were born.