Boys vs. Men

[Architect]

So Katya, you think that telling someone that they are being a boy is not a problem, but to tell someone that they are acting like a girl IS a problem?

Let me see if I can parse out the mental distinctions I'm making. If I was frustrated with I guy I was taking and if I was venting to my best friend about him, I might say "He's being a boy and I need a man." I would never say "He's being such a [racial epithet]" or "He's being such a girl."

My only input here is that if I were said guy, and knew that you said such things about me to your best friend, I wouldn't be very excited about that. Sure, I'll grant you that the two phrases "you're such a boy" and "you're such a girl" have different connotations, but I'm not really thrilled with either. Basically by saying "He's being a boy and I need a man," you're saying that he needs to change in some unspecified way to suit your personal desires and needs? I guess in that case maybe you just need to find a different guy, rather than lament his boyhood. Or is there something else there I'm not getting?

[Marduk]

Frankly, Katya, I think you are just being sexist and therefore trying to find a distinction that isn't really there. The fact is that both are insulting, and using the term "boy" you are, in fact, talking about (usually) adult men, and therefore being insulting. Both terms in this connotation designate insults of lack of maturity; I find both problematic since a person insulting the maturity of another is usually the one lacking in maturity to begin with.

On a (mostly) related note, I find the whole idea that women mature faster than men to be at the root of this problem, and said idea to be total and utter hogwash (speaking emotionally, not physically.)

[Katya]

My only input here is that if I were said guy, and knew that you said such things about me to your best friend, I wouldn't be very excited about that.

Of course you would. It's an insult. I'm not saying it's not an insult.

Basically by saying "He's being a boy and I need a man," you're saying that he needs to change in some unspecified way to suit your personal desires and needs? I guess in that case maybe you just need to find a different guy, rather than lament his boyhood. Or is there something else there I'm not getting?

What if I said "He's immature and I need someone who's more mature"? (And I wasn't saying it about you. Would you have a problem, then?)

[Katya]

Frankly, Katya, I think you are just being sexist and therefore trying to find a distinction that isn't really there. The fact is that both are insulting, and using the term "boy" you are, in fact, talking about (usually) adult men, and therefore being insulting. Both terms in this connotation designate insults of lack of maturity; I find both problematic since a person insulting the maturity of another is usually the one lacking in maturity to begin with.

So, you find it taboo to call someone else immature, ever?

[Marduk]

I said problematic, not taboo. I don't think there's something against the grain of the culture to do so, just that it usually reflects immaturity on one's own part, especially in this way. There's a difference between saying "well, I think that decision lacks a bit of maturity" and "stop it! You're acting like such a boy!" In general, I think we should avoid using stereotypes that generalize about entire groups of people to insult each other, regardless of whether we think that stereotype holds true or not. (Incidentally, before you ask, I also find it problematic to insult someone using "teenager" or any other phrase that designates a specific age group.)

[Architect]

So, you find it taboo to call someone else immature, ever?

I don't think so. I mean, if that's how you feel, I'm not going to "thought police" you into not expressing it.

My only input here is that if I were said guy, and knew that you said such things about me to your best friend, I wouldn't be very excited about that.

Of course you would. It's an insult. I'm not saying it's not an insult.

Basically by saying "He's being a boy and I need a man," you're saying that he needs to change in some unspecified way to suit your personal desires and needs? I guess in that case maybe you just need to find a different guy, rather than lament his boyhood. Or is there something else there I'm not getting?

What if I said "He's immature and I need someone who's more mature"? (And I wasn't saying it about you. Would you have a problem, then?)

In the end, I guess as long as you're using it as an insult, I don't really care how you insult me (or anyone else). If that's the sticking point in your relationship with someone, then maybe that's the best way to express that. I've definitely felt fed up about others' immaturity before so I know where that sentiment comes from.

In general I don't think deconstructing someone into one word ("immature", "boy" are just two examples) helps anyone think rationally about any situation. I guess I'm just trying myself to move from saying things like "he/she is so immature/such a girl/boy" to thinking about the situation more deeply, and finding the root cause of what I'm thinking. To get down to the level of "it bothers me that he does X so much". That helps me figure out where I need to go with the situation.

That's just me personally though; if you feel the need to vent to your best friend I'm not going to tell you how to do it. I'm all for being proper and correct but sometimes I too need to throw all PC-ness into the boiler. At the same time, though, I still think I personally get a lot more out of thinking about the details instead of the generalization.

[Katya]

I said problematic, not taboo. I don't think there's something against the grain of the culture to do so, just that it usually reflects immaturity on one's own part, especially in this way. There's a difference between saying "well, I think that decision lacks a bit of maturity" and "stop it! You're acting like such a boy!" In general, I think we should avoid using stereotypes that generalize about entire groups of people to insult each other, regardless of whether we think that stereotype holds true or not.

That's fair.

I've also been very interested to read both your and Architect's reactions to the idea of being called immature (or some variation of it). It hadn't occurred to me that that would be an insult commonly (and overly) leveled against men by women.