The term "feminist" and its connotations

[Rifka]

Moderator note: this thread was split from the original Mary Poppins thread. In it, Portia mentioned being upset at changes in Mrs. Banks character, which she felt marginalized her as a character into a submissive role.

I haven't seen the musical (although I would love to!), but my sister and brother-in-law went and loved it.

You might be interested in this excerpt from IMDB.com, Portia:

"The Sherman Brothers (Robert B. Sherman and Richard M. Sherman) came up with the idea of Mrs Banks being involved in the suffragette cause to explain why she should be so neglectful of her children."

So, it appears that making Mrs. Banks a suffragette was never intended as a feminist statement-- rather as a statement on her misplaced personal values. Not that the makers of Mary Poppins were saying that suffrage or feminism were wrong-- they were just using it as a foil in this case. I do have to agree that the Votes for Women song was a great song, though.

Also, I don't see why feminists always have to see red just because a woman chooses to stay at home. There's nothing wrong with choosing to be a stay at home mother, any more than there's anything wrong with going to work. Staying at home with your children does mean a wife is useless and dominated by the husband any more than working in an office means that a woman is useless and dominated by her boss. I have no problem with you encouraging further empowerment of women, but you don't have to do it at the expense of stay-at-home mothers, just because they chose differently than you would.

[Katya]

Also, I don't see why feminists always have to see red just because a woman chooses to stay at home.

One feminist on this thread said "the character simply had a lot more resonance for me, personally . . . " (emphasis added). If you would like feminists not to generalize about SAHMs, it might be wise to avoid making generalizations about feminists.

[Tao]

Also, I don't see why feminists always have to see red just because a woman chooses to stay at home.

One feminist on this thread said "the character simply had a lot more resonance for me, personally . . . " (emphasis added). If you would like feminists not to generalize about SAHMs, it might be wise to avoid making generalizations about feminists.

Heh, haven't we already had a thread wherein we discussed the idea that "feminist" by definition carries an extremist connotation, except when being applied to self? Then is not the generalization inherent?

[Katya]

Also, I don't see why feminists always have to see red just because a woman chooses to stay at home.

One feminist on this thread said "the character simply had a lot more resonance for me, personally . . . " (emphasis added). If you would like feminists not to generalize about SAHMs, it might be wise to avoid making generalizations about feminists.

Heh, haven't we already had a thread wherein we discussed the idea that "feminist" by definition carries an extremist connotation, except when being applied to self? Then is not the generalization inherent?

*sigh*

1. Couldn't you say that about any politically charged term? (Socialist, Muslim)

2. Why not let the members of such a group self-identify?

[Tao]

1. Couldn't you say that about any politically charged term? (Socialist, Muslim)

Aye, and I'd expect generalizations are more the rule with each of those terms as well.

2. Why not let the members of such a group self-identify?

Of course, let each identify with that which they so feel best. But know that taking an extreme/politically charged title, especially if it is one with a somewhat nebulous definition, is going to draw generalizations more readily than otherwise.

[Katya]

2. Why not let the members of such a group self-identify?

Of course, let each identify with that which they so feel best. But know that taking an extreme/politically charged title, especially if it is one with a somewhat nebulous definition, is going to draw generalizations more readily than otherwise.

1. What would you suggest as an alternative?

2. Isn't it possible that the extremist stereotypes are coming from those who are opposed to the entire movement, meaning that there will never be a way to position oneself within any part of the movement without being stereotyped? (I.e., as soon as a feminist of any stripe began calling herself something else, that term would also become stereotyped by those with different political objectives?)

3. Would you make the same arguments to a Muslim? (I.e., that it's their own choice to self-identify as Muslim, so they have to accept that Muslims are stereotyped as terrorists?)

[Dragon Lady]

Maybe add an adjective? Mild-feminist, peaceful-Muslim, etc. Sure, it's annoying, and not perfect, but at the very least you set yourself apart from the stereotype and it could start an enlightening discussion.

[Katya]

Maybe add an adjective? Mild-feminist, peaceful-Muslim, etc. Sure, it's annoying, and not perfect, but at the very least you set yourself apart from the stereotype and it could start an enlightening discussion.

So, if someone had a negative stereotype of Mormons, would introduce yourself to them as a non-bigoted Mormon? (Doesn't introducing the adjective just reinforce the stereotype?)

[Dragon Lady]

I guess it depends on the audience. I don't associate with many non-Mormons, so I've never had personal experience as to what the typical non-Mormon thinks of me as. But I definitely have introduced myself as a mild-feminist or something to the like. Or at the very least, a non-stereotypical-feminist. Because I believe the stereotype as much as anyone (anyone normal, that is), and that's not the feminism I believe in. In fact, my view of feminism is often quite the opposite. (As in, I believe that a woman has the right to choose to be a stay-at-home mom and cook meals and clean house and grow a garden and have 5 kids if they want to. I don't believe that a woman who chooses that is oppressed. If she's forced into it when she'd really rather be a CEO somewhere, then sure. She's oppressed. But too often mainstream feminists think that anyone who does that is holding back the feminist movement. When I think it shows that every option is opening up to women.) But there's no need to turn this into a heavy feministic conversation. I'm just showing that sometimes putting an adjective on it can actually be helpful.

[Katya]

But I definitely have introduced myself as a mild-feminist or something to the like. Or at the very least, a non-stereotypical-feminist. Because I believe the stereotype as much as anyone (anyone normal, that is), and that's not the feminism I believe in.

How do you know it's normal to stereotype feminism?

[Dragon Lady]

But I definitely have introduced myself as a mild-feminist or something to the like. Or at the very least, a non-stereotypical-feminist. Because I believe the stereotype as much as anyone (anyone normal, that is), and that's not the feminism I believe in.

How do you know it's normal to stereotype feminism?

I feel like this is a loaded question. I meant to say that I believe the stereotype as much as the average person (perhaps that would have been a better way to state it) as opposed to saying that I believe it as much as anyone (including the crazy psychos). Apparently my parenthetical to cover my bases actually dug me a hole. [sigh]

[Katya]

But I definitely have introduced myself as a mild-feminist or something to the like. Or at the very least, a non-stereotypical-feminist. Because I believe the stereotype as much as anyone (anyone normal, that is), and that's not the feminism I believe in.

How do you know it's normal to stereotype feminism?

I feel like this is a loaded question. I meant to say that I believe the stereotype as much as the average person (perhaps that would have been a better way to state it) as opposed to saying that I believe it as much as anyone (including the crazy psychos). Apparently my parenthetical to cover my bases actually dug me a hole. [sigh]

I don't think that the average person does hold an extreme stereotype of feminists. (Or, at least, I haven't seen any evidence presented on this forum to convince me that this is the case.) Now, I'm not at all surprised that the average person on this forum has a stereotypical view of feminists, but that's because this forum is full of Mormons/Utahns/Republicans, who tend to find themselves on the other political extreme (and who tend to associate with others like them, as we all do, which reinforces their perceptions). But I don't see why I should have to apologize for the fact that feminists are misperceived by such a group.

[Dragon Lady]

But I don't see why I should have to apologize for the fact that feminists are misperceived by such a group.

I never said you have to apologize. I just said that if you don't want to deal with people misjudging you, you could modify the title to fit you personally. I didn't say it was the only answer, nor the best answer. But since I can't personally change the way the world looks at a specific group, if it bugs me to have people identify me with how they perceive the group, I deal with it by changing the way I attach myself to the group. If it doesn't bug me (like it doesn't bug me to tell people that I am Mormon, even if they might think I have horns hidden underneath my vast head of hair) then I'll just leave it with the simple title. You don't have to do it that way. No one else has to do it that way. It was merely a simple suggestion for those who want another option. That's all.

[Katya]

But I don't see why I should have to apologize for the fact that feminists are misperceived by such a group.

I never said you have to apologize.

No, I didn't think you did. (And I should probably have clarified that.) I'm looking back to the point, earlier in the discussion, where Tao says "'feminist' by definition carries an extremist connotation . . . [so any generalization of the group is inherent]." That's not something I'm willing to accept.

[Whistler]

Oh, well Tao is kind of a hick, so we'll just have to forgive his assumptions about feminists. (yeah, don't worry I am totally justifying a stereotyped response based on a stereotype.)

[Marduk]

You know, Whistler, I don't know that I'll ever be used to your sense of humor.

So I'm trying to dissect this (now split) thread and understand exactly what the disconnect is. It seems we had a particularly hot-button generalization (to be fair, we've had generalizations before on these forums that haven't touched quite the nerve) and now we're discussing the term feminism in general?

Katya, I'm trying to understand here. Is it that you dislike that particular characterization of feminists, or do you have a problem with stereotyping in general?

If it is the latter, then I think you ought to find some hypocrisy in this statement:

I'm not at all surprised that the average person on this forum has a stereotypical view of feminists, but that's because this forum is full of Mormons/Utahns/Republicans, who tend to find themselves on the other political extreme (and who tend to associate with others like them, as we all do, which reinforces their perceptions).

So you're saying that these groups stereotypically have a stereotypical view of feminists? In a thread where you are decrying someone's stereotyping of a particular ideology, it might be wise to refrain from doing the same.

Edited to get the quote to function correctly.

[Marduk]

...I'm looking back to the point, earlier in the discussion, where Tao says "'feminist' by definition carries an extremist connotation . . . [so any generalization of the group is inherent]." That's not something I'm willing to accept.

This is a very interesting discussion, and I think the one we ought to be having. I think that to many, the term "feminist" might not be "extremist" by nature. But to another many, I think it does. Personal opinions aside, I don't know which group is larger; if we were to identify a telling characteristic, it would seem that educational level might be the most salient.

[Katya]

You know, Whistler, I don't know that I'll ever be used to your sense of humor.

So I'm trying to dissect this (now split) thread and understand exactly what the disconnect is. It seems we had a particularly hot-button generalization (to be fair, we've had generalizations before on these forums that haven't touched quite the nerve) and now we're discussing the term feminism in general?

Katya, I'm trying to understand here. Is it that you dislike that particular characterization of feminists, or do you have a problem with stereotyping in general?

I don't like that characterization of feminists and I don't like "widely held but fixed and oversimplified images or ideas of a particular type of person or thing."

If it is the latter, then I think you ought to find some hypocrisy in this statement:

I'm not at all surprised that the average person on this forum has a stereotypical view of feminists, but that's because this forum is full of Mormons/Utahns/Republicans, who tend to find themselves on the other political extreme (and who tend to associate with others like them, as we all do, which reinforces their perceptions).

So you're saying that these groups stereotypically have a stereotypical view of feminists? In a thread where you are decrying someone's stereotyping of a particular ideology, it might be wise to refrain from doing the same.

*sigh*

I think there's a difference between a stereotype and an average. I don't think it's a stereotype to say that Utahns are, on average, politically conservative because it's demonstrably true based on voting records or party affiliation. Along those lines, I've been trying to express why I think the views of the members of an atypical group are not going to be representative of average perceptions.

My statement that the average person on this forum has a stereotypical or extreme view of feminists is based on statements such as the following:

I don't see why feminists always have to see red just because a woman chooses to stay at home.

Heh, haven't we already had a thread wherein we discussed the idea that "feminist" by definition carries an extremist connotation, except when being applied to self?

I definitely have introduced myself as a mild-feminist or something to the like. Or at the very least, a non-stereotypical-feminist. Because I believe the stereotype as much as anyone . . .

Feminists have distorted what they saw in order to push forward their Feminist agenda.

I understand that there are many 'varieties' of feminists, but the radical ones are the ones that get the most attention...and thus the ones I think of first.

However, it may be that my overall perceptions are subject to confirmation bias, misremembering, or simply the inevitable consequences of throwing stones from a glass house.

[Marduk]

First off, you just lost all credibility by quoting Vorpal.

No, in all seriousness, I do think there are a number of distortions with your perspective, and it is clear that a nerve has been hit here. First, you called conservatives an "atypical group." I really don't think this is demonstrably true (not that I would affix such a label to myself.) Second, you stretched such a characteristic to claim that based on this, an incorrect perspective of the term "feminist" must needs arise. This is, in fact, a stereotype. Saying that most people in Utah tend to be more conservative than the rest of the country is not a stereotype, since, as you've suggested, there are metrics which can be used to gauge it. Saying that most conservatives would have a negative and stereotyping view of anyone who claims the title feminist is in fact, not demonstrably true (at least, not based on any data we have here, and I'm inclined to believe you don't have any data at present to suggest it.) I'd also be interested (although my visceral response is to believe it true) to see data that would verify that most of the denizens of this forum are Utahn or Republican. I think we do have ample data to show that we are by and large Mormon.

And again, Katya, don't fall into the trap that the most vocal on a particular subject by any means represents an average. Counterbalance the five you just quoted with yourself, myself, UnluckyStuntman, Portia, TheBlackSheep, and I think you can hardly call the viewpoint you presented as "average."

[Dragon Lady]

So, now I am curious, Katya. In order to prevent further misconceptions, would you please describe what you believe feminism to be? (Said in an honest, curious tone; not a hostile, snarky tone.)