Spiritual but not religious (or not)

[Katya]

This is from an account by Jim Burklo, the Associate Dean of Religious Life at USC, who recently visited Salt Lake City and Brigham Young University:

Another [BYU] professor reported something that intrigued me greatly. He said that when LDS young people drop out of the church, they give up religion altogether, and they don’t join the ranks of the "SBNR" – spiritual but not religious. Perhaps Mormonism is such an all-consuming experience that its people see it in all-or-nothing terms. (source)

For reference, around 30% of Americans consider themselves "Spiritual but not religious." (source)

I've definitely seen this tendency in my own friends and family members who no longer consider themselves Mormon. A few of them attended Unitarian services for a while, but didn't continue, although one is now loosely affiliated with Quakerism.

I don't have statistics on how many ex-Catholics, ex-Episcopalians, etc. become SNBRs, but Dr. Burklo's reaction above implies that it's more common in other faith traditions (or that he's surprised it's uncommon for Mormons for some other reason).

Anyway, I'm curious to hear why you think this is the case (or hear your personal experiences if you're one of the above). Do you agree with Dr. Burklo's guess that it's an "all or nothing" issue?

[mic0]

Personally, as one who will probably stop attending church the day I graduate, I don't see myself as spiritual or religious. I'm open-minded about spirituality and religion, but it doesn't play a role in my life.

On the other hand, I've met at least one student here who is very SBNR. He was the sort who would skip church to spend the day on his motorcycle in the mountains, alone, just because for him that was more meaningful than three hours in church. So, I think there is more variation than that guy says. Then again, I haven't done any studies, either, so that would be interesting to look at.

[wired]

Personally, as one who will probably stop attending church the day I graduate, I don't see myself as spiritual or religious. I'm open-minded about spirituality and religion, but it doesn't play a role in my life.

On the other hand, I've met at least one student here who is very SBNR. He was the sort who would skip church to spend the day on his motorcycle in the mountains, alone, just because for him that was more meaningful than three hours in church. So, I think there is more variation than that guy says. Then again, I haven't done any studies, either, so that would be interesting to look at.

Jon Huntsman is in your ward?

[mic0]

It was a different motorcycling person. Does Jon Huntsman ride a motorcycle? That's neat.

[Katya]

Personally, as one who will probably stop attending church the day I graduate, I don't see myself as spiritual or religious. I'm open-minded about spirituality and religion, but it doesn't play a role in my life.

Was there ever a time when it did?

On the other hand, I've met at least one student here who is very SBNR. He was the sort who would skip church to spend the day on his motorcycle in the mountains, alone, just because for him that was more meaningful than three hours in church. So, I think there is more variation than that guy says. Then again, I haven't done any studies, either, so that would be interesting to look at.

I don't think this person was saying there are absolutely no former Mormons who are now SBNR, just that it's a general trend not to head in that direction (and perhaps a disproportionate trend, compared to other denominations).

[Marduk]

Just about every person I know who was raised in the LDS church, but no longer affiliates themselves with it, has declared themselves agnostic or atheist.

I think that not only is it more encompassing than other religions, it also is more peculiar and dogmatic, both of which drive an all-or-nothing approach.

It is much easier to leap out of the church than to simply fall out.

[Katya]

Just about every person I know who was raised in the LDS church, but no longer affiliates themselves with it, has declared themselves agnostic or atheist.

I think that not only is it more encompassing than other religions, it also is more peculiar and dogmatic, both of which drive an all-or-nothing approach.

I wonder if we're doing a poor job of teaching our youth (or our members, generally) that something doesn't have to be LDS-produced to invite the Spirit. I've heard many Mormons talk about visiting another church or a cathedral and how they "could just tell that the Spirit wasn't there" and I'm utterly floored. How could you not feel the Spirit in a beautiful cathedral? (I suppose it helps that I love architecture, but still.) So, if you're not used to looking for spiritual experiences outside of an explicitly LDS framework and then you reject that framework, you're left with no spirituality.

It is much easier to leap out of the church than to simply fall out.

I get what you're saying, here, but I can think of friends who've left more gradually and they've still ended up agnostic/atheist.

[TheBlackSheep]

It is much easier to leap out of the church than to simply fall out.

I get what you're saying, here, but I can think of friends who've left more gradually and they've still ended up agnostic/atheist.

Wait, I don't know if I get what you're saying here. Please clarify. I don't feel as if I leapt anywhere but I've been calling myself an agnostic for a long time now.

It seems to me that a lot of the post-Mormon "agnostics" you find, myself included, are really just people who are now refusing to commit to any one idea at all, acknowledging that they cannot and do not know. To me, this definitely seems like a reaction against Mormonism in particular, where it is very, very common to have even very young children speak from the pulpit about the religious things that they know.

When I decided that it didn't matter to me personally whether the Church was true or not (which is still sort of where I am), there wasn't really any room left for spirituality in my active belief. I have always loved visiting other churches, and I have a great love for other religions, but being raised in the Church made me extremely skeptical of other religions or of religion-less spirituality. Christ is the only path to redemption, but none of those other Christian sects are true, and let's talk about why in countless Sunday School and Seminary lessons. Mormonism is extremely dogmatic, so what's supposed to be left once you've decided that you don't want Mormonism anymore? Maybe that's why I don't understand this leaping business. It doesn't seem like a leap to me to go from Mormonism to a lack of spirituality. It seems like more of a leap to have fuzzy, feel-goody spirituality where there was once Mormonism to me.

Not that all the post-Mormons I know are agnostics or atheists. I'd say the majority definitely are, though.

Sorry if that is rambly or hard to understand. Oh, sleep, or the lack thereof.

[Marduk]

TBS, I've followed your journey probably more closely than most on this forum, and I can definitely say you leapt.

What I'm trying to say is that the leaving process tends to be strained and requires some force of will. A habit of inactivity followed by gradual departure from the LDS belief system is NOT the normal pattern of behavior, whereas for a less dogmatic sect that may be the case. More often, it comes with a very fervent questioning (or perhaps, most often, a disillusionment with a particular historical facet of the church narrative) leading to a harsh "awakening" (a "falling on stony ground," if you will) which very forcefully moves one out of the church.

That's all the analogy was, TBS, to say that the move is usually not a gradual one, but a forceful and deliberate one.

[mic0]

That's an interesting explanation, Marduk, because I definitely feel like I'm more of the gradual type. Anyway, I don't particularly want to get into personal religious thoughts here, but I will second what TBS has said. Especially about the LDS teachings being dogmatic and even, in my opinion, polarizing, which makes it understandable why someone might have a hard time moving from the LDS church to another. When you've grown up thinking there is a single truth, the once you start doubting it is easy to be skeptical of that very idea. Annnd, here on out I'm an observer in this discussion.

[TheBlackSheep]

Marduk, with all due respect, and I love you and you know this, you weren't around when it happened. Nobody was, because it was a scary and personal process. I'd say that I went from TESTIMONY! to I-just-can't-do-this-anymore over the space of about two years, and the only inciting event to my not going anymore at any particular moment was that I moved to a new stake and I wasn't really a student and I didn't have to fake it anymore. At that point, all I really knew was that going to church did not make me happy and I no longer cared whether it was true or not. I then continued to follow all the behavioral parts of being a Mormon for a while, and gradually moved away from the parts of that that I don't think are necessary for me. Everything else you know about me and my beliefs and my behaviors, and you know a lot, has come about in the two years and change since I stopped going to church of my own volition. This is why I say it doesn't feel as though I've leapt.

Now, if you want to talk about socially, yeah, I probably leapt. I was just talking to Gimgimno about this, and he had a good thought. In Utah, or, at least, at BYU, it's sort of impossible to just gradually leave the Church. You can't just stop coming slowly and fade away and expect to get away with it socially. Eventually you're going to have to have that awkward talk, or, if you're me, the awkward email to your friends who read the Board before you retire your main alias and your heathen alias in one go, which leads to you awkwardly spilling the news all at once to your mom between heaving sobs. That's a leap. And it was mostly a secret up until that point, even to my nonmember friends, so it probably looked a lot more like a leap than it felt like.

Anyway, I just don't think things are so simple, for me or as many people as you presume them to be. I think I'm going to make that my motto, after some tweaking. Like fiddling, not like meth abuse.

Also, after all my falling on stony ground, I hope you don't think I've been sun-scorched beyond repair.

[Marduk]

TBS, I've said this before, and I'll say it again, you are far more Christlike than many who attend church every week.

You're right; I wasn't around when it "happened," however, I've spoken with you about it since and read what you've written on the subject in various places, and that's where my comment was coming from. Whether by hook or by crook, I consider anyone who is sitting in sacrament meeting thinking to themselves "I'm just here so I don't have to explain to my parents/can get my ecclesiastical endorsement/not have an awkward phone call from church committee member xyz" and "once that's over, I'm so outta here" to be leaping out of the church. This is opposed to the "oh, I don't think I really want to go to church today. Maybe next week." This over the course of weeks becoming months becoming years until it has been many years since you've done anything with the church, even though you still claim to believe it, but you still don't want to go, and maybe they do have some kooky beliefs after all, but also some good ones, and more years pass, and you can't really remember why you ever went after all. That's the sort of dynamic I'm talking about when I say "fall out of the church;" I think that is how most Catholics, for example, stop being Catholic.

And I never intended to imply that it was simple. My narrative was meant to give overarching observation rather than specifics for every case. Anything that has such a profound influence on one's life for such a long period of time isn't simply going to lift out like a puzzle piece. It is only coming out kicking and screaming.

[Tao]

I don't know that I am able to contribute much to this conversation, as there are many aspects I'm fairly sure I'm not connecting on. One of which I seem to remember talking to Marduk about at one point, but forgive me for asking again: how do you define your usage of the word dogmatic? Because theologically and philosophically speaking, I don't know if the church could get much less dogmatic. The lack of dogma (or a set theology at large actually) is one of the things that makes it difficult to converse intellectually with other theologians.

[Katya]

Hmm. It occurs to me that I may have misunderstood what you meant by "leap out of the church," Marduk. I took it to mean "leave suddenly," but perhaps you means "leave decisively"?

[Marduk]

It was intentionally vague. I means both of those things.

And Tao, yes, we have had this discussion before, and the LDS church is far more dogmatic than most protestant religions.

[Unit of Energy]

The people are far more dogmatic, but the church itself has very few dogmas.

[Tao]

And Tao, yes, we have had this discussion before, and the LDS church is far more dogmatic than most protestant religions.

I guess I just don't see it. I grew up going to a Nazarene church and I'd say they at least are more likely to say "this is because we say it is, don't question it." In my experience Mormons are asked to question everything, in my opinion that's one reason why it appeals to so many intellectual and scientific individuals who might not handle a dogmatic church.

While yes, the LDS church claims divine authority invested in a prophetic body, lay members are not asked to believe or begone. Moroni's challenge is a common litmus for finding faith in the Book of Mormon, and that in turn stands as a key witness as to the prophetic nature of Joseph Smith. From there, members are encouraged to seek personal inspiration as to the calling of each modern day prophet. In my understanding, asking individuals to seek out personal confirmation as to revealed doctrines is far from any definition of dogmatic.

[mic0]

In my experience Mormons are asked to question everything

Sure, but if you question something and come to a conclusion contrary to the majority then you are told you are sinning/not asking hard enough/don't want the real answer. And whether or not that is true is beside the point, because it certainly can make the whole asking thing seem superfluous. For instance, we are told to pray about the prophet that he is a prophet. If you don't think he is a prophet, then maybe you should try following his advice and pray again. If you still don't think he's a prophet, then you are probably doing something wrong, and so on. Do you know what I mean?

[Fredjikrang]

I wrote a rather long reply to this, but it seems it got lost in cyber space. So sad.

[TheBlackSheep]

Mico, I'm glad you're not just spectating.