Spiritual but not religious (or not)

[Fredjikrang]

1 Nefi 14:7

Sometimes the scriptures amaze me. I read this in my normal studies, without even trying to research the topic. It is kind of harsh, but I think it explains, in at least two ways why this happens.

[UnluckyStuntman]

1 Nephi 14:7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.

So, maybe I'm misreading, but it seems to me that this verse is arguing that those who don't buy into the LDS perspective are following Satan because we have hard hearts and we're mentally blind. No wonder non-members think Mormons are assholes.

[mic0]

Annnd, then the teachings of the church are polarizing again. Maybe it is true, but when you are questioning something and you come across that scripture it reinforces the idea that you shouldn't be questioning at all.

[mic0]

Back to the main topic, do you think the trend for LDS people not to move onto another religion is a part of the fact that it is a young Church, and many of us have had generations in it? I'm not sure how exactly, but I feel like there could be a connection between what Burklo said and what was discussed in an old thread about "Mormon" versus "LDS."

[Katya]

Back to the main topic, do you think the trend for LDS people not to move onto another religion . . .

Ah, but that's not the trend in question. Not moving on to another organized religion is probably fairly common for former members of many denominations. However, young formerly LDS people also don't describe themselves as "spiritual," which is apparently more rare.

[mic0]

Okay:

Back to the main topic, do you think the trend for LDS people to not describe themselves as "spiritual" has something to do with [what I referenced above]? Because I feel like it could. In the other thread people discussed how the Church is so new that it hasn't had time for people to leave but maintain the culture, like in Catholicism. As a result, maybe it is harder for people to maintain the spiritual side; maybe it is tied up in culture. I don't know, just trying to get back on topic.

[Katya]

Okay:

Back to the main topic, do you think the trend for LDS people to not describe themselves as "spiritual" has something to do with [what I referenced above]? Because I feel like it could. In the other thread people discussed how the Church is so new that it hasn't had time for people to leave but maintain the culture, like in Catholicism. As a result, maybe it is harder for people to maintain the spiritual side; maybe it is tied up in culture. I don't know, just trying to get back on topic.

Yeah, I can see that as a possible explanation. Of course, it would help to have information about the spiritual lives of young former Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. One downside of this whole topic (and I realize I'm to blame for this) is that it's based on a remark made in passing, so it's hard to pin down what the specific comparisons are.

[Craig Jessop]

1 Nefi 14:7

Sometimes the scriptures amaze me. I read this in my normal studies, without even trying to research the topic. It is kind of harsh, but I think it explains, in at least two ways why this happens.

It's harsh, but you've got to make sure that you're interpreting the scripture the way it's meant. Why did Nephi phrase it that way? Why did Joseph translate it that way? What if either of their human weakness influenced their writing? If the Spirit tells you one thing, that's great. But the Spirit may be telling somebody else something different, and that's okay. If anybody misinterprets or doesn't hear what the Spirit says that's between them and God and nobody else, especially not me or you. All we can do is love each other and wait until we no longer "see through a glass, darkly" and have all the answers. I have faith that day will come, and that's good enough for me.

There's a great deal of latitude in the Gospel, that's why it's so great. And you have to be sure that the work the scripture is talking about is what you think it is. There's a difference between the Church and the Gospel, you know. I have my opinion on how they overlap (which is probably more conservative than most on this forum, but more liberal than the guy who taught elders quorum today), and I'm sure everybody here has their own opinion, too. But to be sure, I don't think that we can throw down scriptures and expect that to be the end of discussion.

(Y ya no estas en la mision, no necesitas demonstrar que hablas espanol... todos lo creemos, mijo )

[wired]

Don't have time to expound, but I think this trend has to do with the members of the Church often focusing on absolute arguments. "Either the Book of Mormon is true or not." "Either Joseph Smith was a prophet or not." It's somewhat systemic of the Us vs. The World mentality that we Mormons tend to have. Now, I'm not saying that mentality is right (or wrong!), what I am saying is that it tends to polarize people. People who find themselves dealing with the ambiguities inherent with our faith, I think, feel pushed out by this type of rhetoric.

Another aspect is the hierarchical nature of the Church. Many members of the Church view God in a directly linked role with the Church all of the time - every decision made about the Church is a memo sent from God to the First Presidency. Now, I'm a believing Mormon who is quite active, but I don't buy that interpretation of it. But when people reinforce that model, it makes those who become disaffected with the Church, disaffected with God as well.

[Fredjikrang]

And this is what happens when you simply post a scriptural reference I guess, people take it badly and think that you are insulting them.

So, to explain a little bit. I said that that scripture explains the phenomenon in at least two ways. I will now explain them a little bit so that my words are less likely to be missunderstood.

1. Prophecy
I think that by just putting that word it becomes much more clear, but just in case. This is a prophesy that, in the last days the "Marvelous work and a wonder" will force a division, people are either going to have to accept it or reject it. This is similar to the method of absolutes that wired was talking about. This is a crucial part of christianity, and is something that is a central teaching of Jesus in the New Testiment. (see Revelations 3:16, amount others.) But, to finish this part, being a prophecy means that seeing that it is that way in the world today should be an evidence of its truthfullness.

2. Teachings
This is the second part, and it is related to the first, and strongly related to wired's comment. This encompasses the idea of "self ful filling prophecies" or, in other words, that when you teach a prophecy it is actually causing it to come to pass. Example: If you teach that there is only one true church, the people that learn and accept that idea are much more likely to reject spirituality than simply leave the church, because, even though we generally aren't aware of it, and in spite of the fact that we are trying to reject these beliefs, they still influence us at a very low level. So, if I reject that this is the true church, but keep my possibly engrained belief that there is only one true church, it is not a big step to reject spirituality completely.

And now I would like to defend myself and my beliefs a little bit. First of all people, lighten up a little bit! I really think that one of the biggest flaws of American culture is our seeming inablity to talk about religion without getting offended. Just because I say something that you don't agree with doesn't mean that I'm trying to insult you, so please, don't be offended.

As for beliefs, yes, the idea that there is only one correct church is a central doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. No, this does not mean that everyone who isn't a member of the church "are following Satan because (they) have hard hearts and (they're) mentally blind." Nor is that what that scripture is saying, nor what I was trying to say. If anyone would like to take it that way, do it knowing that it is your personal misinterpretation. My suggestion would be not to jump to taking offense, and instead ask and investigate. A good place to start would be reading the full chapter that I cited, which would greatly help in understanding the verse that I referenced. Or you could ask before making rather extreme and prejudiced sounding judgements.

And finally, I didn't intend to "throw down scriptures and expect that to be the end of discussion." I was simply sharing an interesting and related scripture that I happened to find. I was hoping that it would be a productive addition to the discussion, as it comes from a book that is regarded as holy by the religion in question, talking about the exact same topic that was being discussed. I admit that I probably should have written a better explanation, and so I'll try to do better with that in the future. I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was trying to do something else.

And sorry about writing Nefi instead of Nephi. My mind is kind of a strange and unorganized mess of Spanish and English.

[Imogen]

And this is what happens when you simply post a scriptural reference I guess, people take it badly and think that you are insulting them.

Or they have no idea what scripture you're referring to and don't know why people are so upset (Hi, I've never read the BoM)

[Fredjikrang]

True, but there are two ways of responding to that. Saying "What?" as you did, and taking it badly. Thank you pointing out that you aren't familiar with it instead of taking it badly, I really do appreciate it.

The scripture was cited by UnluckyStuntman, and basically says that in the last days, or the days preceding the return of Jesus Christ to the earth, a "marvelous work and a wonder" will occur, probably refering to the restoration of the fullness of the gospel by new prophets, and will have a polarizing affect on the people that are alive in this time period.

[Marduk]

Yeah Fredji, you have to give more clarification and understanding into how you are interpreting things, and why you are interpreting them that way. People may still be offended, but better they be offended by something you actually mean, right?

One more clarification: the work in question is not, in fact, the LDS church. It is the gospel. How closely aligned a given person feels those to be may vary, and this may seem to be quibbling, but I think it is an important distinction to make.

[mic0]

I wasn't offended, and I doubt US was either, but you've got to be careful when writing things on the interwebs.

[TheBlackSheep]

(Edited to fix some confusing sentence structure.)

I'm just going to hop in and say that I'm not sure how offended Unlucky Stuntman was, but I was offended. True, a lot of that probably had a lot to do with earlier things in the thread, but it was also hard to see you, Fredjikrang, someone who I know and like, reference a verse without explanation that says that I am being led into destruction and captivity due to the hardness of my heart and blindness of my mind, right after I had been so open with some of my thoughts. You probably have to be inactive to know about the particular neuroses that go with being inactive in a church cultural center. Anyway, I pointed the post out to Unlucky Stuntman in my angst, and, in werf's defense, Unlucky Stuntman would never have posted what werf posted if werf weren't in crisis. Mostly cause Bad Astronaut would have stopped it. Still, it probably just isn't super sensitive to post just that verse, no explanation, with a comment about how wonderful the scriptures are in this circumstance. I'm just saying.

Anyway, thank goodness for Mico and Katya for being the voices of reason around here.

[TheBlackSheep]

In the other thread people discussed how the Church is so new that it hasn't had time for people to leave but maintain the culture, like in Catholicism. As a result, maybe it is harder for people to maintain the spiritual side; maybe it is tied up in culture.

Yes, I remember this from the other thread, too, and I meant to comment on it. Agreed. Agreed agreed agreed. I also agree with the other people who commented earlier who said that the people are more dogmatic than the actual church or the gospel. If only you could really leave the culture and stay in the Church.

[TheBlackSheep]

Another aspect is the hierarchical nature of the Church. Many members of the Church view God in a directly linked role with the Church all of the time - every decision made about the Church is a memo sent from God to the First Presidency. Now, I'm a believing Mormon who is quite active, but I don't buy that interpretation of it. But when people reinforce that model, it makes those who become disaffected with the Church, disaffected with God as well.

This is an interesting thought. I'm going to ponder this.

[mic0]

Oops, sorry for assuming. See, Fredjikrang, we've all gotta be careful. But yeah, like everyone's already said, explanations are useful.

[Fredjikrang]

Yes, it is true. And I would like to say that I had thought a little bit about how you would take it, BlackSheep, and it was because of that that I wrote even the inadequate explanation that I included, and I probably should have considered it more fully before posting it in the manner that I did so. And while I don't have as profound of an understand of your situation as many others, I am not a complete stranger to being an. . .unusual case in the "Mormon" world either.

I apologize if you felt like I was attacking you, and hope that your past experience with me helps you believe that it wasn't in any way my intention.

Next time if I post something in a hurry like that, I'll try to be a bit more sensitive, but I hope that we can all try to be a bit more patient on the receiving end as well.

And to finish this completely off topic post, I would like to say that I think it is possible to leave the culture and stay in the church.

[Marduk]

Agreed on that last point Fredji. I think I'm about as un-mormon culture as they get, while still being an active member.

What I'm about to say is difficult to get across, and I'm likely to offend many (especially TBS, who I seem to be offending left and right in this thread. But I know she loves me, so I won't be quite so "kid gloves" here) but I think it is an important point to make.

I have been told many, many times that "I don't know what it is like" to have the sort of thoughts that lead one to leave the church. That I don't know what it is like to go through that turmoil, and come out the other side. It leads to a sort of clique, if you will, an "insider's group" of people who have left the church, who none of the sheep inside it can possibly understand. There is a certain sort of arrogance that comes to most when they leave this church, one that prevents anything someone inside it has to say from penetrating those ears. And you know what? No, I don't know what it is like to be in that situation. But you (individuals who feel this way, no one specifically in this thread) don't know what it is like to question everything and remain IN the church. You don't know what it takes to see the human stains and flaws in it, the awful, awful way that some members treat those outside the faith, or those who want to live a lifestyle different from what the LDS church mandates, and still bear the name of the same church. I love, love, love this church, and its gospel, and it causes me great heartache to see many in it who profess to love Christ and then turn and shun their neighbors who don't attend the same church. It breaks my heart to hear the way many of them speak of homosexuals and the homosexual community, and I know for a fact that the way they do it is not in line with the Christ they profess to believe in. My blood boils when I see a bishop talking of kindness and mercy and love in a Sunday meeting, and then spouting hate and racism in his political caucus the next day.

This is a flawed church, without question. I worry too many see those flaws and believe it the fault of the gospel, and this causes them to turn away completely. And I think that it being the dominant culture, and affecting every way of life in this area, makes it impossible to be lukewarm about it. You either have to attend the church, or despise the church, or move the hell away.

Sorry if this comment was too far off topic, but I'm the moderator and I don't care. Also, I needed to get this off my chest.