Giovanni wrote:The reason I made this quiz is because of the marked change I noticed among the participants in this message board in the two years while I was gone. It seems that a lot of the people here seem to be a lot more cavalier towards specifically Mormonism, and religion in general than they were when I left. In the end, that was the ultimate purpose of this quiz--not necessarily to say "I'm better than 60% of the readers of the board because I'm more faithful to my religion," but more to let me see if there really was any rational for the changes that I saw.
Emiliana wrote:Giovanni, I think you're right that there's overall less religiousness here than there was when I joined, which I think was about the same time you left for your mission. I've never been Mormon. But two years ago I was far more religious (at least in a traditional sense) than I am now.
Giovanni,
Are you noticing a difference in the long standing participants, or is it the newer participants who seem to be more cavalier? How much of this could be attributed to a difference in your pre-mission vs post-mission values?
bobtheenchantedone wrote:
My physical relationship with Marduk, while in my opinion perfectly respectful and appropriate, would make any middle-aged RS president swoon.
Easy now. Someone might think we've been rubbing our necks together and moaning.
Are you noticing a difference in the long standing participants, or is it the newer participants who seem to be more cavalier? How much of this could be attributed to a difference in your pre-mission vs post-mission values?
I especially notice it from the long termers. Everyone else I feel started that way, but I see a serious change in the attitudes of some of the boardies who were here when I left.
A sort of general response, since I'm too lazy to go back and pick out quotes that I'm responding to.
I should probably clarify that I'm still definitely concerned with keeping the commandments as best as I understand them. Understanding that the focus needs to be on loving God does not absolve us at all of that responsibility--in fact, if anything, it deepens it. But it also puts my mistakes into perspective. If I make an honest error related to any commandment, but I do not lose sight of my ultimate motive, then I can repent, put it behind me, and not worry about it anymore.
I guess the distinction I'm trying to make is motives. Motives for keeping the commandments, and also motives for not keeping them. If I know perfectly well that the Word of Wisdom is an inspired commandment and that drinking is a sin, and I've covenanted to keep that commandment, then intentionally disregarding it shows a blatant lack of regard for my Heavenly Father. If, however, I have a weak testimony and a history of alcoholism, giving in to temptation and drinking occasionally is more a sign of human weakness than it is an indicator of my relationship with Deity. I'm not saying that makes it okay, but I hope you can see the distinction I'm trying to get at. Which of those (outwardly identical) actions displays less love for God? Which is more easily forgivable?
Although I should probably note that anybody who intentionally uses this argument as an excuse to sin pretty much automatically falls into the first category rather than the second.
yayfulness wrote:A sort of general response, since I'm too lazy to go back and pick out quotes that I'm responding to.
I should probably clarify that I'm still definitely concerned with keeping the commandments as best as I understand them. Understanding that the focus needs to be on loving God does not absolve us at all of that responsibility--in fact, if anything, it deepens it. But it also puts my mistakes into perspective. If I make an honest error related to any commandment, but I do not lose sight of my ultimate motive, then I can repent, put it behind me, and not worry about it anymore.
I guess the distinction I'm trying to make is motives. Motives for keeping the commandments, and also motives for not keeping them. If I know perfectly well that the Word of Wisdom is an inspired commandment and that drinking is a sin, and I've covenanted to keep that commandment, then intentionally disregarding it shows a blatant lack of regard for my Heavenly Father. If, however, I have a weak testimony and a history of alcoholism, giving in to temptation and drinking occasionally is more a sign of human weakness than it is an indicator of my relationship with Deity. I'm not saying that makes it okay, but I hope you can see the distinction I'm trying to get at. Which of those (outwardly identical) actions displays less love for God? Which is more easily forgivable?
Although I should probably note that anybody who intentionally uses this argument as an excuse to sin pretty much automatically falls into the first category rather than the second.
Are you noticing a difference in the long standing participants, or is it the newer participants who seem to be more cavalier? How much of this could be attributed to a difference in your pre-mission vs post-mission values?
I especially notice it from the long termers. Everyone else I feel started that way, but I see a serious change in the attitudes of some of the boardies who were here when I left.
How would you interpret the poll? Are we more, less, or about the same in the distribution of mormonness compared to two years ago? Does the poll give any insight about changes in the level of cavalierness here?
I think the proportions are potentially about the same. However the vocality of people in concern to their disagreemen with stereotypical Mormon beliefs is what j think has become greater.
Giovanni Schwartz wrote:I think the proportions are potentially about the same. However the vocality of people in concern to their disagreemen with stereotypical Mormon beliefs is what j think has become greater.
It might simply be the fact that we've moved on from BYU and are no longer concerned about the consequences of disobeying the honor code (so we can be more vocal about it). Although, truth be told, my testimony of the church has significantly decreased in the last two years, so you're probably right on that score as well.
Craig Jessop wrote:I'm going to break my rule of not participating in super controversial threads to say that, while I'm a pretty orthodox Mormon (having scored 19 on the test -- the gross jello thing was the only holdout), I love you all. Just because I don't drink caffeine, and just because I attend the temple, and just because I look and dress like a picture out of the New Era, and just because I actually like living in Provo with all its foibles, doesn't mean that I think any less of you guys. Really.
This is why I love you. (In a real, but platonic, across-the-Internet way.) Caffeine headaches aren't worth it anyway. ;) And even though I'm in the "7-10" category, I don't think of myself as "better" or "more enlightened" than ANYONE else who is either more or less invested in this tradition than myself.
I think a far more useful "scorechart" is the one found in Preach My Gospel. It is more nuanced, addresses a lot more of one's inner spiritual beliefs in addition to some outward actions, and I have found it to be useful over the years to gauge where I am in that aspect of my life (and to see what has grown in importance and what has become less relevant to me). I'll provide a page number when I get home tonight unless someone else has it on hand. I don't think it's only useful for missionaries.
Giovanni Schwartz wrote:I think the proportions are potentially about the same. However the vocality of people in concern to their disagreemen with stereotypical Mormon beliefs is what j think has become greater.
It might simply be the fact that we've moved on from BYU and are no longer concerned about the consequences of disobeying the honor code (so we can be more vocal about it). Although, truth be told, my testimony of the church has significantly decreased in the last two years, so you're probably right on that score as well.
Has your faith in God decreased? Do you still believe Jesus is your Saviour? Do you still live a mormon lifestyle, even though your testimony of the church has decreased?
And Gio, when you left on your mission, I was the least religious it is possible to be (and not all that active in this forum). To go from pretty much a "0" to a "9" proves that this isn't unidirectional, and there's probably confirmation bias at work.
Giovanni Schwartz wrote:I think the proportions are potentially about the same. However the vocality of people in concern to their disagreemen with stereotypical Mormon beliefs is what j think has become greater.
I've done both - moved a lot further away from stereotypical Momonsim and become, obviously, a lot more vocal about what I do and don't believe.
The Epistler was quite honestly knocked on her ethereal behind by the sheer logic of this.
S.A.M. wrote:Has your faith in God decreased? Do you still believe Jesus is your Saviour? Do you still live a mormon lifestyle, even though your testimony of the church has decreased?
I'm pretty much a secular humanist at this point. Don't really believe in God, but I'm not completely closed off to the possibility of spiritual experiences. However, I still think much of my worldview is informed by my Mormon upbringing, and certainly much of my lifestyle is.
Portia wrote:and there's probably confirmation bias at work.
My thoughts exactly. The unexpected is always disproportionately attention-grabbing.
Portia wrote:I think a far more useful "scorechart" is the one found in Preach My Gospel. It is more nuanced, addresses a lot more of one's inner spiritual beliefs in addition to some outward actions, and I have found it to be useful over the years to gauge where I am in that aspect of my life (and to see what has grown in importance and what has become less relevant to me). I'll provide a page number when I get home tonight unless someone else has it on hand. I don't think it's only useful for missionaries.
Actually, throughout my mission I found it annoying to be asked repeatedly to take the test. It always seemed a bit arbitrary to me. I prefer more organic forms of analysis.
Yarjka wrote:It might simply be the fact that we've moved on from BYU and are no longer concerned about the consequences of disobeying the honor code (so we can be more vocal about it).
This illustrates to me one of the key weaknesses of the Honor Code. It regulates behavior but doesn't necessarily influence belief. That's not to say I'm opposed to it or don't think it does any good, but it's so easy for it to become a distraction.
S.A.M. wrote:Has your faith in God decreased? Do you still believe Jesus is your Saviour? Do you still live a mormon lifestyle, even though your testimony of the church has decreased?
I'm pretty much a secular humanist at this point. Don't really believe in God, but I'm not completely closed off to the possibility of spiritual experiences. However, I still think much of my worldview is informed by my Mormon upbringing, and certainly much of my lifestyle is.
Would you ever be up for chatting about this, maybe through emails? Just curious.
Also, same question to krebscout. With the added note: I wish we lived in the same area because I think you have a lot of really interesting views.
Of course! And any time you (or anyone) happens to come by LA (or Disneyland), come on up to our place for some dinner and chat.
I'm about 95% open with my identity on this board, so anyone who may want to email me for any reason can PM me. I'll send one to you, Mico...or are we already Facebook friends? I'm Facebook friends with a batch of writers younger than me and I can't match all their nyms to their names.
So the root question remains, Gio: if this perceived change is indeed actual and not just perceived, is it the result of a change in membership feeling, or (as I have suggested) a change in dynamics that have made for a more open place to discuss such?
Just curious.