Anyone Know About Visual-Spatial Learning Disabilities?

[NerdGirl]

Okay, here's the deal. When I was in grade 12 (1999), my tiny small town school was told by the school board that they needed to "identify gifted children." So they picked a couple of kids in each grade and sent them to the school district's psychologist for testing. I was one of them. And they found that my IQ was above the limit of the IQ test, which was something like 168. HOWEVER, they also found that my spatial reasoning skills were VERY low, something on the order of the 10th percentile. And this was all presented as, "This is interesting. Your spatial reasoning skills are so poor that you technically have a visual-spatial learning disability, but your IQ is so high that it seems you have figured out how to compensate for it. Huh." And I never thought too much about it, but it's always kind of been in the back of my mind.

So then on Friday last week I was sitting in class, and we're talking about child development right now, and they talked about learning disabilities. And the focus was mostly on the more common things like dyslexia, but visual-spatial learning disabilities were kind of mentioned in passing. And then I had this epiphany. One of my huge sources of frustration at the moment is that I'm trying to learn how to drive. I'm 30 and I've been trying to learn to drive since I was 24. And I just can't do it. I can make the car go and stuff, but it's the whole sense of where I am wrt other cars and when to start turning and how to change lanes and trip planning and when to start stopping and all of these things that involve SPATIAL REASONING that I just can't do. And on Friday I was sitting there thinking, "Hey, I have this learning disability - maybe that's why I am having such a hard time learning to drive!"

So I did a bit of googling, and sure enough, driving is one of the problems for people with visual-spatial learning disabilities. And, just in case you are interested, other problems include telling left from right, reading maps, getting lost in places you've been a million times, not recognizing cars and buildings you've seen a million times, visualizing things in 3 dimensions, walking into things, learning to ride a bike, etc - and I've had problems with all of those things! But I found ways around them. Seriously, I couldn't ride a bike until I was 12. I used to get yelled at all the time for walking into walls and stuff - like I was doing it on purpose and yelling at me would make me stop walking into the wall! And lots of concepts in physics were really hard for me - I thought I was just lazy and/or stupid, because people would say things to me like, "You're so smart. I don't know why you don't get this. You just need to work harder." So I'm having this epiphany like, this explains everything, and I never was lazy and stupid because some things were so hard for me to learn, and actually it's probably quite impressive that I've managed to do some of the things I've done. Oh, and I also found an article about medical students with visual-spatial learning disabilities not doing well in anatomy - may explain why I get 90s on pretty much everything else and really good clinical evaluations, but I've actually failed two anatomy tests. I don't just have selective laziness/stupidity when it comes to anatomy or vectors or driving - I have a freaking learning disability. It's all kind of shocking but very validating at the same time.

So anyway, driving. I really think this is why I'm having such a hard time driving, and now I'm a bit more hopeful because maybe I can do something about it. Seriously, I've taken the full driver's ed course, plus additional lessons with two different instructors, and they all just get frustrated with me because they know that I'm "really smart" and I have graduate degrees and I'm in medical school and they don't understand why I can't figure out which shoulder to look over before I turn left or right or change lanes. So one thing I'm going to do is tell the next driving instructor that I have this learning disability.

But I would like more information, and that's what I'm wanting to ask about here. I can't find a lot of information on the internet about visual-spatial learning disabilities. Everything I have found is in the context of non-verbal learning disabilities (NLD), which is apparently on a spectrum with Asperger's syndrome and includes all of these other issues that I don't have. I don't have issues with not understanding social cues (I'm actually probably better than the general population at social cues and figuring people out), but the focus of all of these NLD things is mostly the other things and that's useless to me. I have an isolated spatial reasoning defect. I don't have some big thing that's on a spectrum with Asperger's syndrome. What I would really like to do is buy a book about visual-spatial learning disabilities, but my internet searching skills have not found one. If there isn't a book, even a website that's specifically about the visual-spatial stuff and not the rest of the NLD stuff. I am gathering that visual-spatial learning disabilities are not that common, especially not as isolated things that don't coexist with problems understanding non-verbal social cues. But if there is any info out there, I would like to have it. I would like to understand my issue a bit better, I would REALLY like to know if there are any suggestions for how to learn to drive with this, and I would also kind of like to have something I can show to driving instructors (or anyone who needs to know about it for any future issues I might encounter) so that they can understand what my problem is and be patient with me while I'm trying to learn.

Do any of you have any ideas? I know some of you are into education and psychology and most of us one here are repositories of all kinds of random information, so I thought this might be my best bet to maybe find some info. Seriously, if you can point me to a book about just visual-spatial learning disabilities, you will be my hero forever. I have come to the end of the internet in my search efforts.

[Digit]

Maybe this.

[Whistler]

If you're in med school, do you have any access to awesome neuroscience journals? Also, if your college has a counseling center or something, if you can get your disability diagnosed, then you might be able to have some extra time on tests (maybe? usually I hear about it for ADD). I feel like a neuropsychologist would be really fascinated by your brain.

I did a google scholar search, but I didn't find anything exciting http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=vis ... sdt=0%2C45

Oh, maybe you can find the author of this article about adults with visual-spatial disabilities (I googled visual-spatial disability support): http://www.ldao.ca/introduction-to-ldsa ... abilities/

[krebscout]

And, just in case you are interested, other problems include telling left from right, reading maps, getting lost in places you've been a million times, not recognizing cars and buildings you've seen a million times, visualizing things in 3 dimensions, walking into things, learning to ride a bike, etc.

NERDGIRL. I read this list to Sauron, and he said, "What are you learning about, krebscout syndrome?" This describes me in a big way — with the exception of trouble visualizing things in 3 dimensions. Perhaps that's my dad's sculptor blood in me fighting back? Anyway, I, too, didn't learn to ride a bike until I was 13, and my parents bribed me with fifty dollars to ride it down the driveway and back. I did, and then I didn't touch a bike again until...this August. When Sauron dragged me out on a bike trip and there was a lot of crying and embarrassment on my part, but I did actually ride a bike for a short distance. I've always had so much trouble with left and right that friends have invented different ways to get the idea through to me. And driving. Oh the driving.

I've always had anxieties about driving (I chalked it up to the childhood nightmares about driving that I had). I did get my license soon after my sixteenth birthday, but there was a lot of drama and crying involved, and I would have panic attacks on the freeway and so successfully avoided them for years. When I moved to Los Angeles my anxieties, understandably, got worse. I was trapped in my house because I was too scared to go anywhere. It got to a ridiculous and damaging point, and it needed to change. So I became the family driver. Sauron was not allowed to drive any more. And I don't know that all this will necessarily apply to your situation (and I can't help you with your actual question), but now, after about a year of being the family driver, I'm a fairly confident, Los Angeles-freeway-savvy driver. It helps to have Sauron, who has a GPS for a brain, as my navigator whenever we're together. But my other strategies are: always, always looking up directions beforehand to where I'm going (even if I've been there a hundred times) and usually looking up the way back (because it's pretty hard for me to follow the directions backwards...all the lefts and the rights, they get so mixed up!) I love that Google Maps will tell you if your destination is on the right or the left, and I usually deliberately spend some time figuring my left and right by squeezing my left or right fist or giving myself some other tactile memory of which side the destination will be on. I like to get in the correct lane as soon as possible (though I'm getting better at this). I hardly ever use my side-view mirrors because they confuse me — I rely on over-the-shoulder to check my blind spots. And then lots and lots and lots of practice. Parallel parking, though, still has me completely stumped, and I'm pretty bad at parking in general.

So I've pretty much just self-diagnosed myself with the same thing, but at least now I feel less embarrassed about sharing my infantile driving habits. And...good luck.

[Whistler]

I think you will need to find non-spatial cues to help you drive, if that's possible. Maybe you could always wear a glove on your left hand to keep track of which side your blind spot is on. For turning, would it help to have a target speed to slow down to before turning? It's hard to think of a solution since so many driving cues are spatial. I wonder if a GPS would help, since it would warn you a consistent distance from your turn?

Anatomy seems even harder since the right/left is often reversed. My mother-in-law still has difficulties with right and left because of reversing it to refer to patients (she was a doctor for some time). I wonder if you could learn each half seperately and number them or something... although you would still have the problem of not being able to remember what is where.

Sorry, this is kind of fascinating! I've always been bad at physics, though my spatial reasoning is pretty good (average?) otherwise.

[Whistler]

well sounds like krebscout has some actual advice, listen to her!

[UnluckyStuntman]

What you're describing sound a lot like dyspraxia. Is that what you're talking about?

My husband has dyspraxia - it's one of those fun side effects from his stroke - and he is no longer allowed to drive. I've been told that maybe, with time, he'll recover enough to drive and that his dyspraxia alone won't be enough to disqualify him from becoming licensed, so long as he can demonstrate that he can operate a car safely. I guess we'll see - he has other, more prominent deficits that will keep him from driving.

I know that there are driving schools that cater to adults with disabilities (maybe even including spatial awareness issues like dyspraxia), have you looked into those? Or see if you can track down an occupational therapist who works with brain injured patients. Since brain injuries often leave people with spatial-awareness issues, OT's are trained to help their clients compensate for deficiencies like what you've described (among other things).

[Digit]

NerdGirl, doesn't every medical student have to do a rotation in surgery even if they are not going to be a surgeon? Will you at one point have to stick your hands in a living person's body and do something spatial?

[Talons]

I feel like you just described me, although not as extreme. I think what has helped me out the most is video games. Google validates me: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 145626.htm

[Katya]

The book Applied Neuropsychology of Attention: Theory, Diagnosis and Rehabilitation has a chapter called "Attention and driving: a cognitive neuropsychological approach." I don't think it's exactly what you're looking for, but it might be of interest. (And maybe the bibliography could point you in a more fruitful direction.)

[Portia]

I can't drive either, but I chalk it up to pretty severe anxiety. I'd call my visuo-spatial abilities average or slightly above, and my verbal/mathematical intelligence at least a couple of standard deviations above average, but my ability to deal with stressful situations far, far below average. I haven't really tried much since I was 17.

A fight my parents and I always had is I always desperately needed to know how a vehicle operated - WHY you go into this or that gear, WHAT makes the carburetor or engine run, HOW to judge how far 20 or 30 feet is - it really annoyed them, and they accused me of not making a real effort to learn, but I can't learn something without knowing the small details. I'm not a big-picture person. My little sister said that when it comes to the etymology of words or looking at protozoa under a microscope, she couldn't care less. !!! She'll probably make an excellent driver. I always read in the car, so I don't understand routes and various driving conventions except in an abstract sense. And I had to learn on a standard, which heightened my anxiety several magnitudes. Driving is so expensive anyway; I don't really feel motivated to learn.

I'd compare how I was taught to (not) drive to being yelled at to play the piano by ear, and someone relentlessly screaming that you're doing it wrong and it sounds bad and to go over and start again and you start crying, and all along there was sheet music you could have studied out carefully and done it in a deliberate, rote way. My school did not place a high priority on "practical" classes, between Dante's Inferno and Molecular Biology and Graphic Design there simply wasn't home ec, woodshop, or driving, so I took an expensive private course which was simply an overweight British man claiming all American teens were on drugs and an unintelligible Asian man yelling "tah lah! tah lah!" which could have been interpreted either way. I think if I could have learned in a simulator and not been traumatized on Highland Drive in rush hour I would have had more success.

[Condensed into one post.]

[krebscout]

Oh one more driving strategy that you may find useful or, more likely, will just make me look silly:

I use the "landmark method" for judging how far away I am from other cars — on the freeway, I make note of when the car in front of me passes a sign or some other landmark, then I count and I should not pass that same landmark until four full seconds after. Off the freeway, I usually count until three. And I brake as soon as I see the car's brake lights in front of me.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

I do the same thing, and DON'T have any VSLD's. I guess I'm either uber-safe or uber-paranoid of getting into an accident. Probably both, actually.

[NerdGirl]

Ok, wow. You people are amazing! I'm going to see if I can work the multi-quote thing to type some replies.

this

That is awesome, and I'm going to download it.

If you're in med school, do you have any access to awesome neuroscience journals? Also, if your college has a counseling center or something, if you can get your disability diagnosed, then you might be able to have some extra time on tests (maybe? usually I hear about it for ADD). I feel like a neuropsychologist would be really fascinated by your brain.

The extra time on tests would probably have really helped with the anatomy tests, because it's not that I can't do, it's just that I need more time to figure it out. At this point though I only have one more anatomy test and it's in a couple of weeks and I think I will do fine on it. The tests I failed were neuroanatomy and musculoskeletal anatomy, which are a lot more complicated than GI or renal or whatever else anatomy. The simpler things I don't have too much of a problem, it's just all of the muscles and nerves and what attaches to what that takes me FOREVER to learn. And I agree that a neuropsychologist would be fascinated by my brain, especially because in addition to what I just talked about here, I also have OCD and synesthesia.

Krebscout, I really like your driving suggestions. Thank you!!

UnluckyStuntman, I think it's similar to dyspraxia in some ways, but not quite the same. At least from what I've read, I think dyspraxia is more of a motor issue with spatial things, and what I have is more of a sensory issue with spatial things - like I have issues processing visual input that relations to spatial things, but when I figure out how to process the input, I don't have any problem physically performing tasks related to it. But maybe some of the solutions to the problem would be the same since both issues have to do with space. I'm definitely going to do some searches on dyspraxia and driving because maybe there will be some ideas I can use.

NerdGirl, doesn't every medical student have to do a rotation in surgery even if they are not going to be a surgeon? Will you at one point have to stick your hands in a living person's body and do something spatial?

Yes and yes, although med students on surgery rotations don't do much more than hold retractors and maybe suture (or stand in the corner and not touch anything, depending on the surgeon) - and I actually have sutured live people in emergency several times and I'm pretty good at it. It's not actually doing the things that's the problem, it's figuring out the input and figuring out how to do them. I think even with this problem I could probably still be a surgeon if I wanted to (I don't, I want to be an emergency doctor), but I would have a much harder time learning surgery than my colleagues would. Kind of like when I was in physics - it was way harder for me than everything else. I've actually learned most of the anatomy that I failed now, it just took me a LOT longer. We have a systems-based curriculum, so instead of having a class that's "anatomy" we have classes that are "neurology" or "hematology and GI" and all of the other body systems and within each systems class we have to learn the anatomy (and everything else) related to that system. I think I was actually really lucky to end up at a med school like this because we are taught anatomy in a way that's very clinically relevant and related to everything else, and it was much easier for me to try to learn it that way than it would have been if I had taken a traditional "learn all of the anatomy at once" kind of class. But the fact that I have managed to learn the anatomy even if I didn't learn it as fast as I maybe should have (and that I managed to get a PhD in physics even though I had a way harder time than other physics students) gives me hope that I will be able to learn to drive eventually!

Talon - that is so interesting! I'm not good at video games at all, but I love them. Maybe I should start playing more of them!!

Katya - I will definitely check out that book. Thanks!

Portia - I have anxiety too, which probably doesn't help.

Krebscout - I really like that landmark idea!

Thank you so much, you are all my heroes!!