Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

[Dragon Lady]

I feel like you're catering to both sides. You're telling the women's rights group that women can do the same things as men, but then you're also catering to the other side by saying that the priesthood makes you better. I don't care which opinion you hold, even if it is middle ground. But what is it?

I would suggest that you make yourself better. The priesthood just provides a specific opportunity to allow that growth to happen. But that growth can happen with or without the priesthood.

Why men are given that specific opportunity and women are not, I do not know. Is it because stereotypically men need to be pointed in a direction and women see need and fill it? Is it because women aren't capable of following direction? Is it because of some mysterious reason that God hasn't revealed to us? Is it that men won (or lost?) a coin toss in the councils in heaven? I have no idea. I really have no idea. But my opinion is that men and women are equal in capacity to grow and become better people. The priesthood is one path to get there, true. But it isn't a guaranteed path nor is it the only path. And both men and women can grow and become better on paths outside of the priesthood. (Even men who hold and honor their priesthood.)

[Dragon Lady]

And maybe, just maybe, women are also given a specific path in nurturing their children. (I know many of you would argue against this.) But it is also not a guaranteed path nor is it the only path. And both men and women can grow and become better on paths outside of motherhood.

(I almost fear to post this one, but I am one who believes that the ability to bear children and the tendency to nurture all children (ours and others) is the main counterbalance to the priesthood. I know not all women want to or can become mothers. This is also why I believe that motherhood is not the only path for growth and betterment. It is the one most traveled, but the gospel is personalized. Not everyone will take the path most traveled and yet can still reach exaltation.)

[Portia]

And both men and women can grow and become better on paths outside of motherhood.

Not too hard for men, avoiding motherhood.

[Dragon Lady]

And not too hard for women, avoiding priesthood.

[Portia]

And not too hard for women, avoiding priesthood.

<facepalm>

[Dragon Lady]

My point there is simply, men can't give birth and women can't hold the priesthood. One is physically impossible and one is currently doctrinally not allowed. My bigger point is that all people, men and women, can grow and become charitable, etc. Some men can do that through the priesthood. Some women can do that through motherhood. All men and women can do it without priesthood or motherhood.

[Whistler]

Whistler. The whole point of earth life is to give us experiences that help us to become better people. The purpose of the Church is "for the perfecting of the saints." (Ephesians 4:12). See also D&C 124:143. We are taught that we have great potential, to become even as our Father in Heaven, but none of us are there yet. Our actions and the grace of God definitely does make a difference in the sanctification of our souls. This is such a fundamental teaching I must not be understanding what you are saying.

I would argue that our experiences do not change our individual worth. God loves us all equally, because all of our souls are worth the same amount. Are you saying that some people's souls are worth more than others? Our experiences can change our personality and how we see the world, but to say they make me a BETTER person is incorrect. Better than whom? How much better? Is my soul worth $100 more because I have experienced prayer? No, that's ridiculous.

Mosiah 2:21 is a good way to get at what I'm getting at. No matter how righteous we are, we're still going to be unprofitable servants. 2:26 is also good: " 26 And I, even I, whom ye call your king, am no better than ye yourselves are; for I am also of the dust."

If you believe that some people are better than others, you're setting yourself up for feelings of inferiority or superiority, which are not of God. It's much healthier spiritually and psychologically to see everyone as having the same worth.

[bobtheenchantedone]

And maybe, just maybe, women are also given a specific path in nurturing their children. (I know many of you would argue against this.) But it is also not a guaranteed path nor is it the only path. And both men and women can grow and become better on paths outside of motherhood.

If women have a specific path in motherhood, why don't men have a specific path in fatherhood? Are we arguing that children have much less need of a father than mother? Are we arguing that the priesthood is more important than fatherhood? When trying to equate motherhood to the priesthood instead of fatherhood, what do we do about the fact that a woman cannot be a mother without a man at least in some way (even if only in donated sperm) whereas a man can hold the priesthood irrespective of any women that are or are not in his life? To be more specific to the Church, where are the callings that require you to be a mother?

I know I'm reopening old arguments and getting slightly more off topic with this, but I cannot participate in a conversation where we are equating motherhood to the priesthood for any reason. They are simply not the balance for each other in any way.

Is my soul worth $100 more because I have experienced prayer? No, that's ridiculous.

I once bore my testimony on how God wouldn't listen to my prayers unless I read my scriptures daily. *shudder* This is why I dislike the focus on the righteousness to-do list in the Church. Yes, many good things are on that list, but if we are basing our righteousness and worth on that list only (and how we see others are doing on that list) we are no longer growing in truth and righteousness.

[vorpal blade]

Dragon Lady. You ask some very good questions. I don't have all the answers. I don't see some of the answers clearly. I have a ton of things I'd like to say, but I feel constrained. I can only give partial answers and hope they lead me and others in the right direction.

There are some things you can do with the priesthood that you cannot do without the priesthood. Perform ordinances, for example. Give priesthood blessings. Preside in the priesthood sense. Doing these things properly requires a tremendous amount of effort and preparation spiritually. We grow in charity, love, compassion, patience, kindness, gentleness, and spiritual power as we righteously exercise the priesthood in service to others. My understanding is that God requires the priesthood partly because it is essential training for the kinds of things Celestial men will be called upon to do in the next life.

I don't know if women just don't need the extra burden of the priesthood responsibility, together with the extra power than comes with it. I suspect that it is because women are inherently different in their spiritual makeup. They also tend to have different interests, talents, and focus in life. Perhaps it is this difference that tends to give women service opportunities and growth that men don't get or feel motivated to work for. Certainly a family is better off with both a loving mother and a loving father, but because the sexes are different the way they serve the family is different, with much overlap, of course.

Naturally all women do not become mothers, and all women do not feel the same feelings as other women. Loving service outside of the home will also help women to develop Christlike attributes. Also, not every man has the opportunity to hold the priesthood, and many men can and do become wonderful, saintly people without the priesthood. All I can say is that I know that having the priesthood makes a positive difference for me in helping me to become a better person, a better father, and a better husband. In some ways I feel like the priesthood levels the playing field at home. Not that my wife is better than me, or I am better than my wife, but it helps to keep things equal in ways I don't fully understand.

I'm aware of the vulnerability I have to defend my point of view in this forum. The experiences of the priesthood are highly personal. I just know that if did not have the priesthood I would not be taking advantages of opportunities to sacrifice and serve. I would not be calling upon my family to pray, read the scriptures, have family home evening, or otherwise presiding in my home. I would not be helping out others as much. I would not feel as much compassion and empathy as I do. I'm certainly not perfect, but without the priesthood in my life I'd be even worse.

I'd be interested in hearing from other men who hold the priesthood. Ask Yellow how he feels about it, Dragon Lady.

[vorpal blade]

Whistler. The whole point of earth life is to give us experiences that help us to become better people. The purpose of the Church is "for the perfecting of the saints." (Ephesians 4:12). See also D&C 124:143. We are taught that we have great potential, to become even as our Father in Heaven, but none of us are there yet. Our actions and the grace of God definitely does make a difference in the sanctification of our souls. This is such a fundamental teaching I must not be understanding what you are saying.

I would argue that our experiences do not change our individual worth. God loves us all equally, because all of our souls are worth the same amount. Are you saying that some people's souls are worth more than others? Our experiences can change our personality and how we see the world, but to say they make me a BETTER person is incorrect. Better than whom? How much better? Is my soul worth $100 more because I have experienced prayer? No, that's ridiculous.

Mosiah 2:21 is a good way to get at what I'm getting at. No matter how righteous we are, we're still going to be unprofitable servants. 2:26 is also good: " 26 And I, even I, whom ye call your king, am no better than ye yourselves are; for I am also of the dust."

If you believe that some people are better than others, you're setting yourself up for feelings of inferiority or superiority, which are not of God. It's much healthier spiritually and psychologically to see everyone as having the same worth.

I think your choice of words to say "worth" is a little bit loaded. I'm on firm doctrinal ground if I say that some are more noble and great than others. This was true even before the world was created. See Abraham and D&C 138:55.

Well, we don't have to compare ourselves to other people. We can focus on the fact that we individually can improve. Could we be kinder, more patient, more understanding, more forgiving, more tolerant, wiser, more trustworthy, more loyal, more helpful, more friendly, more courteous, more obedient, more cheerful, more brave, more clean, and more reverent? Yes, we could, and improving in these virtues would make us better people. The experiences we have in life, if we grow and exhibit faith and determination to follow God, have a tendency to build and develop these virtues in us. That's a big part of the reason we have commandments. If we fail the tests of life, if we take the easy way out, if we pursue carnal pleasures instead of serving God we do not develop our Godlike potential, and we do not become the kind of people God knows we could become.

The worth of souls mostly resides in the potential of the soul, not in the culmination of godly attributes we have not yet obtained. The soul is of infinite worth, because there is infinite potential, not that we stand equally worthy before God. If at the end of this life we were all equally good then we would all go to the same kingdom, but this is not the case.

[S.A.M.]

I would suggest that you make yourself better. The priesthood just provides a specific opportunity to allow that growth to happen. But that growth can happen with or without the priesthood.

Why men are given that specific opportunity and women are not, I do not know.

I don't know either. It may change. You are right, improving oneself should happen whether one holds the Priesthood, or not. Bearing the responsibilities of the Priesthood gives me a little extra incentive to do so.

[Dragon Lady]

vorpal, trust me. I have talked to Yellow about this. In depth. He does have opinions. He's just not sure he can express them on this forum in a way that will make sense. But I'll pass on the word that his opinion is wanted.

bob, I knew I shouldn't have published that part. It was a side track that was highly loaded. And is a very tangential subject. I was mostly trying to focus on the idea that men and women are equal and can take many different paths to grow spiritually and to become good, charitable and kind. Men don't need the priesthood to become good. In fact, I think that some men use it as a crutch, but that's another story.


From Dragon Baby, before bed:
i love you

[Portia]

Women don't have the LDS priesthood because the religion is influenced by thousands of years of Christian history, and more saliently, an American culture in which men's and women's roles were prescribed in certain ways. If Joseph Smith had been a Celtic druid or an ancient Greek holy man or any other number of things, the organizational structure of the modern Church would be different.

Too often we try to justify the status quo, but I've looked, and there are no times when an LDS leader has given any reason why not other than "because this is the way it's always been." I see a lot of post hoc rationalization, which is more disturbing to me than saying "just because."

I don't think sexism is any more Godlike than racism. I think the racial priesthood ban was stupid and uninspired and it can only be a good thing it went away. So I will let you extrapolate my feelings on women's position in the LDS Church.