Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

[bobtheenchantedone]

I'm sorry you don't think that communication and understanding can solve problems in a relationship. But truly every one of your scenarios included an assumption of immaturity or lack of respect that simply does not belong in a Christlike relationship. Indeed there are many couples that struggle with similar issues, but I believe that any couple whose relationship is built on mutual respect, trust, and understanding will not run into such problems.

What the men are told in the LDS church is that they have a responsibility to act in such a way that their wives will be happy. If their wives are not happy it is probably because the men are doing something wrong. This is not to say that a woman is incapable of taking responsibility for her own happiness. It doesn't say that she is emotionally immature. It simply outlines a man's responsibility not to bring grief to his wife. I don't hear anything in Church about a wife's responsibility to make her husband happy. Maybe they say that in secret Relief Society meetings, but I never hear it.

Yes, we do espouse a very unbalanced and incorrect view of marriage in the church, and it does create a lot of unnecessary friction.

[Portia]

<internet high fives to all my board sisters>

[Dragon Lady]

I've heard many times that we should support our husbands. And focus all of my attention on my husband's happiness.

[Dragon Lady]

In fact, I read a quote by Pres. Hinckley just this morning about how if both spouses will devote their energies to the other person's happiness, their eternal marriage will last. Or something like that. Of course, now I can't find the quote…

I think you may often hear things said about how you should work to keep your spouse happy and just assume it's said to husbands. It's often said to both parties.

[Dragon Lady]

Found it! "If you will make your first concern the comfort, the well-being, and the happiness of your companion, sublimating any personal concern to that loftier goal, you will be happy, and your marriage will go on through eternity." —Gordon B. Hinckley

[S.A.M.]

I believe that any couple whose relationship is built on mutual respect, trust, and understanding will not run into such problems.

Every couple, even those whose relationship is built on mutual respect, trust, and understanding will run into such problems. That foundation of mutual respect, trust, and understanding hopefully leads to an excellent resolution of the problem.

I believe that problems such as the ones I indicated are real problems for millions of couples

All of vorpal blade's examples still happen today, in young couples and in older couples. Trying to discredit these due to a generational bias is bunk. They are happening now, even, at times, in couples whose relationship is built on mutial respect, trust, and understanding.

In many cases I'm sure communication is the answer, but in other cases someone is going to have to defer to the other and not like it

Communication is the answer, and in some cases, after that communication (which hopefully happens in reasonable, civil tones) one person does have to defer to the other. This happens all the time! Picking which restaurant to eat at, what T.V. show to watch, which movie to go to are the easy ones. I may have zero interest in seeing a movie that my wife wants to see, but after a quick discussion, I will go with her even though I don't like it. I won't be mad or upset or angry we didn't go to the movie I wanted to see. It gets much harder when the issues become finances, raising children, careers, etc.

[Dragon Lady]

It's true. You will run into things that you won't agree on, no matter how much you talk about it. There are times you simply have to compromise. And you won't always like it.

[mic0]

And it could be the man or the woman compromising!! (I think that is my main issue with this whole thing. I get that historically and even today women tend to BE in the home more, but that doesn't mean hers should be the last word all the time or that a man should suppress his own feelings on things and let the woman "rule" if he feels strongly about something. Or not so strongly.)

[S.A.M.]

Ideally the man and the woman would mutually seek a revelation from God instructing them on how the problem should be handled in their particular situation. It will mean one or both of them will have to admit that they were wrong. Outside of such revelation that both independently receives I don’t see a mutually satisfying solution happening.

I understand where this came from, but I imagine God not answering this prayer this way ("revealing" who is right and who is "wrong"). I hope the answer would be something like, "Sorry kids, but you will have to work out a solution to this together. When you have a solution, come to me together, and if it is a good one, I will confirm that."

[Portia]

If you need a revelation about what salad fork your kids should use, you have maje problems.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Where did the salad forks come from?

[S.A.M.]

When a mommy and a daddy salad fork love each other very much... the salad fork stork delivers them in the night.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

The salad sftork? That's gotta be a Norwegian word, right?

[Portia]

Cursing in this forum offends my sensibilities, Gio. What you just wrote in Norwegian is unprintable.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Oh really

[vorpal blade]

I usually blame my kids because they are excellent at finding and pushing those emotional buttons. I am very much emotionally attached to my kids, which is a good thing in some ways and an awful thing in ways like this. When they are cranky, disobedient, or screaming at a pitch that literally makes my ear drums feel like they are rattling in my head, especially over a prolonged period of time. I get grumpy back. That usually happens when Yellow is at work. There is absolutely nothing he could do about it. So no, I don't think that often the husband has failed to do all he could do. I think he does an excellent job and I just need to learn better to reign in my emotions and not let little munchkins have control over what I, a grown woman, feel.

I've been thinking about this and I wanted to run an idea past you on it. I can understand how your greater exposure to your children and your great emotional attachment could result in them being usually the ones to push your buttons. In my experience, and I think I am like other men, is that the children can be frustrating and challenging, but they don't really get to me like my wife does. Like the signature I've been using lately says, what a man most wants is to be admired by the woman he loves. He would like to be admired by his children, and that feels really good, but if they don't admire you it isn't really painful for a man. You reason that they are just children, or your job is to be the parent and sometimes you have to make decisions they don't like. It may hurt a little when they act horrible and say they hate you, but it doesn't shake you to the core.

On the othe hand, for a man, when his wife acts like her husband has done something to lessen her admiration for him, it feels like horrible torture. The pain is almost unbearable. Well, maybe that is an exaggeration, but I think not by much. The incentive is there to do anything honorable to avoid that pain. That desire to not displease his wife, not to decrease her esteem for him, is a very powerful lever. A good woman will not misuse this power by manipulating her husband or making her dance to her own music, but she ought to realize that she has this power and needs to wield it wisely and lovingly. When she uses this power well he is motivated to be the kind of husband she can be proud of, and that is a good thing for everyone if her values are good.

Maybe a wife doesn't feel as keenly the need to be admired by her husband in the same way that he does. Instead she wants to be loved by him. She also wants to be loved by her children. When either her husband or her children act in ways that indicate that they don't love her she is in pain. You might call it unhappy. But she is not so much motivated to be admired by her husband as the husband is motivated to be admired by his wife. So, she can push his buttons much easier than he can push her buttons, unless he wants to show her that he doesn't love her anymore, which is kind of a last resort option. And the children can push her buttons more easily that her husband can because she invests so much time in the relationship, and they often don't have any problem acting in a way that indicates a lack of love for the mother. Therefore the children are more often to blame than the husband for her bad moods.

What do you think of this theory?

[vorpal blade]

I believe that any couple whose relationship is built on mutual respect, trust, and understanding will not run into such problems.

Every couple, even those whose relationship is built on mutual respect, trust, and understanding will run into such problems. That foundation of mutual respect, trust, and understanding hopefully leads to an excellent resolution of the problem.

In many cases I'm sure communication is the answer, but in other cases someone is going to have to defer to the other and not like it

Communication is the answer, and in some cases, after that communication (which hopefully happens in reasonable, civil tones) one person does have to defer to the other. This happens all the time! Picking which restaurant to eat at, what T.V. show to watch, which movie to go to are the easy ones. I may have zero interest in seeing a movie that my wife wants to see, but after a quick discussion, I will go with her even though I don't like it. I won't be mad or upset or angry we didn't go to the movie I wanted to see. It gets much harder when the issues become finances, raising children, careers, etc.

Thanks for your comments, S.A.M. I appreciate them.

There is an attitude many people have that says that communication will solve every problem. Of course mutual respect, trust, and understanding will be essential in that discussion. What really bothers me today is the assumption that people will come to a mutually agreeable solution if only everyone shows love and good will and is willing to listen and communicate. I hear all the time that the reason the conservatives aren't agreeing with the liberals is that only the liberals really care about the poor, the disadvantaged, women, the minorities. Obviously, it is thought, the only reason they don't come to an agreement is because the conservatives are mean-spirited, selfish, lack respect, don't understand the situation, or we just need to get President Obama to sit down with some conservatives and work it out. The problem is that both sides can think sincerely that they are showing 100% respect, trust, and understanding, and that only their side has the correct solution. As hard as it may be to believe, both sides after sincere discussion and with the mutual goal of doing what is best for the country, still think that if the other side had its way the country would either go to hell or take a step back from "progress." Yet people continue to demonize the other side, acting as if the only legitimate purpose of communication was to get the other side to see that a respectful, trusting, loving understanding would mean that the other side recognizes the error of their ways.

In the examples I gave, which are not perfect, I attempted to give situations where both sides actually thought they were in the right. Both sides think that the other side needs to change, and both sides think they are being reasonable, loving, respectful, kind, considerate, and understanding. If it appears to you that one side is obviously wrong and can't possibly justify his or her thinking as a loving, caring person, then I suggest you don't really understand their point of view. So, when differences come up that aren't readily resolved you are going to think that the other person must not be loving, caring, respectful, or understanding.

I think it best to believe that both sides sincerely want a respectful, loving, mutually satisfying solution, but even after they communicate their various points of view you may still disagree. Hopefully you agree, but if you don't then don't assume it is because the other side has bad intentions or is evil.

[Dragon Lady]

Vorpal, I can see what you're saying, but that doesn't resonant with the way I work, and I know many women like me. What I need more than anything is constant affirmation that Yellow loves me, respects me, appreciates me, etc. The second he does or says something that indicates he's frustrated with me or disappointed in me, my self-confidence disappears and I find myself clamming up and closing off. That's why communication is so important in our relationship. He knows this about me, so when he feels something needs to be said, he makes sure to talk it through with me and use that opportunity to show me he still loves me and is only telling me in order to help me become better. And to help our relationship become better.

Just last night we had the conversation that maybe I shouldn't buy so many things to hang up around the house until the ones I've already bought have gotten hung up. I immediately started to shut myself off and had to force myself to talk it out and explain that I had asked him to hang them up, but he hadn't yet. Turns out, he'd forgotten about most of them. So I had to explain that I didn't want to become the nagging wife or the "Fine. I'll just do it myself." kind of wife. So we talked it out. It sounds silly now, but that conversation was Really Hard for me.

My point being, I need the love, respect, admiration of my husband far more than I think he needs mine. And I think that's common in LDS culture. We women are always trying to be the best mom, best wife, best homemaker, best everything, because the scriptures command us to be perfect that having anyone poke a hole in our glass card castle can easily bring the whole thing down to collapse and ruin. And maybe I'm the one exaggerating now. But I think wives need that respect as much as, if not more than, then men do.

Perhaps I'm being stereotypical about men being calloused? I don't know. I wouldn't say Yellow is calloused at all. He's just… way more easy-going and is far better about letting water slide off the duck's back than I am. He simply doesn't let things get to him the way I do.

[vorpal blade]

Found it! "If you will make your first concern the comfort, the well-being, and the happiness of your companion, sublimating any personal concern to that loftier goal, you will be happy, and your marriage will go on through eternity." —Gordon B. Hinckley

I stand corrected.

My point being, I need the love, respect, admiration of my husband far more than I think he needs mine. And I think that's common in LDS culture. We women are always trying to be the best mom, best wife, best homemaker, best everything, because the scriptures command us to be perfect that having anyone poke a hole in our glass card castle can easily bring the whole thing down to collapse and ruin. And maybe I'm the one exaggerating now. But I think wives need that respect as much as, if not more than, then men do.

Thanks for your thoughts. I don't know.

[Dragon Lady]

I think the best answer here, Vorpal, is that gender stereotyping doesn't work so well in this situation.