dad's girlfriend

[Portia]

Yes, my situation was the same as t1d's. I still think it is stupid, but my feelings aren't ueber relevant. I feel like if his parents aren't put out, I have no right to be, y'know? And I think finding out who my bio dad is is a good exchange. (And will help me with My Issues.)

[Marduk]

I'm sorry that you feel I'm picking on you, Portia. That's not my intent. From my perspective, it seems like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how sealings work that is causing you anxiety, and I was trying to alleviate the anxiety by clearing things up. Very difficult to do over messages that span a length of time. Mostly I've been trying to parse out exactly what you know.

There's a fundamental difference between spousal sealings and parent-child sealings. Part of the confusion arises, I think, in that when children are born to parents who are sealed to each other, there is a defacto sealing for the children to parents, hence, sealings of children to parents are far less common than spousal sealings. However, the former (other than in cases of BiC families) are not at all related to the latter. Simply stated, a child's sealing to parents remains in effect regardless, unless a child were to request some change and the parent were no longer a member (something I've never heard of in real life, but I assume must happen somewhere.) A parent may have a cancellation of sealing to the spouse to whom the child is sealed, but this does not affect the sealing of the child. The child remains sealed to both parents even if they are no longer sealed to each other. Alternatively, a parent may receive a new sealing (after a cancellation in the case of a woman, or a second (or third or fourth) sealing for a man) which also does not affect a child unless the child chooses to receive a sealing to the other individual. In short, you will not be sealed to anyone you don't want to, and as long as you are living, you cannot be sealed to anyone (spouse or parent) unless you are physically present. Also, once a sealing is performed, it is in effect until a cancellation of sealing, whether parent-child or spousal, and a cancellation of the one does not affect the other.

As to the question of who can be present, DL speaks correctly, and the only exception I'm aware of is for children who are being sealed to parents.

[Dragon Lady]

the only exception I'm aware of is for children who are being sealed to parents.

Yes. That. I should have clarified that. Sorry.

[Katya]

I wasn't "born in the [marriage] covenant," to use a phrase I find particularly revolting (in a religion class with Whistler, for a professor I later worked for, he asked us to raise our hands if we were. Ugh!).

As an aside to anyone who's been involved in the conversation about whether some people in the Church are (treated) better than others, this is the kind of thing that makes people feel like second class citizens.

[Dragon Lady]

The term "born in the covenant" I have never considered making anyone feel bad. Mostly because the only time I think it's even pertinent is in genealogy. "Should we seal this child to their parents? No, they were BIC." But maybe I've never paid attention because I was born under the covenant, so I've never been personally affected by that.

I'm the kind of person that tries very hard to be empathetic to everyone. I try far too hard to not offend people. But I look at this topic and am having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I have a really hard time understanding how this term is offensive (personally, I think it's fantastic that people decide to be sealed after their married and have kids. You made a great decision! What a wonderful moment in your life! Hooray!). Not that I'm saying it's not. Clearly it is to Portia. I'm not trying to demean your feelings, promise. But to me it's a label. You have brown hair. You have red hair. Why does it matter when you were sealed to your parents? The point is that you're sealed. Now it's pretty much the same thing.

I guess, in my head, it makes me wonder, "If I have to be careful when I use the term BIC in order to not offend people, what else am I offending people by saying without even thinking about it? I already try to be careful about what I say. But now it makes me want to just shut up and never say anything because now even things like BIC or not are offensive."

This is when I think it's better to work on not being offended by people instead of making people walk on eggshells.

But maybe I just feel entitled to be a first class citizen and don't realize it?

[Portia]

The term "born in the covenant" I have never considered making anyone feel bad. Mostly because the only time I think it's even pertinent is in genealogy. "Should we seal this child to their parents? No, they were BIC." But maybe I've never paid attention because I was born under the covenant, so I've never been personally affected by that.

I'm the kind of person that tries very hard to be empathetic to everyone. I try far too hard to not offend people. But I look at this topic and am having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I have a really hard time understanding how this term is offensive (personally, I think it's fantastic that people decide to be sealed after their married and have kids. You made a great decision! What a wonderful moment in your life! Hooray!). Not that I'm saying it's not. Clearly it is to Portia. I'm not trying to demean your feelings, promise. But to me it's a label. You have brown hair. You have red hair. Why does it matter when you were sealed to your parents? The point is that you're sealed. Now it's pretty much the same thing.

I guess, in my head, it makes me wonder, "If I have to be careful when I use the term BIC in order to not offend people, what else am I offending people by saying without even thinking about it? I already try to be careful about what I say. But now it makes me want to just shut up and never say anything because now even things like BIC or not are offensive."

This is when I think it's better to work on not being offended by people instead of making people walk on eggshells.

But maybe I just feel entitled to be a first class citizen and don't realize it?

Is it that hard to realize how asking a group of college freshman and sophomores to raise their hand to indicate who is and who isn't seems like a wheat-and-tares separation? It's incredibly personal, and incredibly embarrassing. Add to that semiannual talks about how those who have premarital sex are doomed, and yes, I felt like a second-class citizen, actually.

[Portia]

Now it's pretty much the same thing.

Yeah, pretty much. Except not.

[Dragon Lady]

No, him asking was stupid. It served no purpose. Unless it was a genealogy class and he was specifically trying to point out the percentages for some valid reason that I can't possibly think of. It's as stupid as in our last stake conference when our patriarch asked everyone from Ephraim or Manasseh to raise their hands. It's stupid and pointless. (And in the latter case, it's also something that the church requests you don't share with people outside of your immediate family.)

[Dragon Lady]

But do instances like that happen often? Is it a common problem?

I can point out several things religion/institute teachers have done that are just plain... stupid. But they're usually lone instances. Not things that happen often. (My favorite: "Three is symbolic of the godhead. Four is symbolic of the earth. Three plus four is seven. The seventh letter of the Hebrew alphabet is Zion. Coincidence? I think not." Whaa-aat?! Just... the logic. And what point were you trying to make? How does this build my testimony? Wait, what am I learning here today, exactly?)

Is this something that's pointed out often? You would see it more than I would, as it's more personal to you than it is to me. I guess, was this a lone instance, or a common cultural problem?

[Marduk]

Alternatively, as there are different operating procedures based on circumstance, is there a term you would prefer?

[Portia]

Well, I'm glad we are in agreement about the stupidity of that instance. (And clearly I wasn't scarred for life, or anything, since I worked for him, and quite happily. I think he was just a bit naive, sometimes.)

I just don't find it to be a useful concept. I don't think it matters for one's status before God, so I don't see the need to talk about it. It's a social construct, basically.

It's a very "Utah culture" thing.

[Dragon Lady]

I'm sorry. I'm really not trying to be insensitive or rude about this. I really am trying to understand. I've been trying to think of a situation where I would be on the other side. Where I'd be the "second-class citizen." I think once instance would be when someone asks, say in RS, who served a mission. And I'd sit there, knowing that I actively chose *not* to serve a mission. And despite knowing that it is presented as a choice for women, I know most women who didn't serve always try to justify why. "I got married instead." Or the one I fall back on when I'm really wanting to justify, "It would have pushed me back in my schooling more than the 18 months I took off because of the way my classes were set up." Which is true. Except that wasn't the *real* reason I didn't serve. I didn't go on a mission because it scared me to death and I didn't *want* to go. Which seems a cowardly answer. But is true. And there is nothing wrong with it.

But on the other hand, I don't think it's wrong for someone to ask that question. Even in that setting. I don't think we should shy away from the topic of who served missions because we might offend those who didn't. I think the important part is treating those who didn't with the same amount of respect afterwards as you did before. Both men and women. One of my best friends married a guy who didn't serve a mission. Yes, it concerned me, but I knew that she had talked to him in depth about it and she wasn't concerned, so I figured it was none of my business. I still don't know why he didn't serve. But I still treat him the same despite that knowledge.

Now the culture when people ask me if I served a mission and I say no and then they snub me or treat me differently, that's bad. And if there is a culture of treating people as less because they were not BIC, then that's also bad. And those should be stopped.

[Portia]

I think I can get on board with all that.

A hard thing about this is that you could choose whether to go on a mission or not, regardless of how fraught that decision may be.

Children don't choose who they're born to. It perpetuates the folk doctrine that you're more valiant and righteous in the pre-mortal existence. MAKES NO SENSE DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[Marduk]

It is barbaric that someone might believe that it makes any difference to God when a sealing happens.

Just to clarify, though, it does have a legitimate purpose: this is how church records are clarified. There must be some sort of concise way to record a date of sealing, when the sealing was just a de-facto one.

[Portia]

This is a really good article on By Common Consent for those who are born into far worse conditions than upper-middle-class unmarried white college sophomores.

Historically, caste systems have been vehicles of social and spiritual damnation. By contrast, the Gospel offers equal opportunity for all to come unto Christ and be saved.

Here are a bunch of disgruntled people, some of whom were in the process of leaving the Church, most of whom did not appreciate the phrase. This line of thinking is especially dangerous when it gets in the hands of privileged, white teenagers and gets enmeshed with American Exceptionalism (cough, American Heritage, cough cough) and Holier Than Thou-ism.

And here is a thread by what I would call "liberal" Mormons about whether there is a certain kind of predestination. Since the most recent statements amount to "we don't know," I think it's a concept that's best laid to rest. Maybe, focus on your own development and less about who's the chosen-est generation/caste.

[Portia]

(Fair warning, I'm not a mod on any of those threads, so if you read things offensive to your sense of propriety, sorry.)

[Dragon Lady]

But you still haven't answered my question. Does being asked about your sealing status happen often? Or does it just annoy you because of that one instance?

[Portia]

But you still haven't answered my question. Does being asked about your sealing status happen often? Or does it just annoy you because of that one instance?

It's a trope that comes up a lot, and I'm a sensitive person. I'm not exactly super-active, as I'm sure is no secret on this forum. I did get the message loud and clear though as a young woman that some pigs are more equal than others, though.

I just don't like talking about my complex family dynamics in general. This woman who was the sister (?) of a funeral director came up to me at my YSA ward and started hugging me and asking me how I was doing. (She had been at my mom's viewing.) I wanted to die, myself.

So whenever it does come up, it necessitates a lengthy, awkward explanation I'd much rather avoid. There is a social stigma completely unrelated to the Church about being illegitimate, and yeah, it's not like I'm comfortable chitchatting about that. At least in Utah, BIC becomes a handy shorthand for "perfect Mormon family." I know that there is a technical definition--I'm not stupid--but it always had a connotative value beyond its basic value for me. Why do you think I begged my parents to get sealed?

[Dragon Lady]

So, you're equating being illegitimate with not being born under the covenant?

I can understand not wanting to talk about your complex family dynamic and feeling awkward when it gets brought up.

But there are a *lot* of reasons for being sealed to your parents without being BIC. There's adoption. Joining the church later in life. Cleaning up lifestyles later in life. Some are complex and some are not. I was thinking you were incorporating all of these into second-class citizen status. Are you? Or are you talking more about your situation and other complicated ones like it?

[Dragon Lady]

Maybe what I'm asking is, does it annoy you when the topic of sealings arise in general? Or specifically born in the covenant vs. sealed later?