#79670 - zero population is the answer, my friend

[Portia]

I don't see how the idea that there are spirit children lining up waiting to get bodies isn't somewhat ... unsettling? Creepy? Narcissistic? I'm all for people doing what gives them pleasure, but you can't tell me that the hashtagged baby selfies aren't as much a status symbol for young Mormons as Ubering to the Chateau Mormont after Korean food and cocktails is for a certain set in L.A.

The title up there is a joke, but the idea of being "obsessive" about childbearing and rearing is going to make your children into ill-behaved little monsters.

Keep in mind that I voluntarily left a desk job to work with children in enriching STEM activities so it's not like I don't have a knife in this fight. There are excellent parents, okay parents, and outright abusive parents among the yuppie children I work with and it has nothing to do with religion.

I think whether it's the Duggars or a certain Utah County ideal, having children early and often invariably keeps women undereducated and it's all the more effective tactic to get them to shut up and stay out of important issues of government, etc. I may have a child one day when I'm good and ready but Saturday's Warrior ideas are pretty silly (and imo, folk doctrine-y).

[Arcaiden]

Totally hijacking this thread, but I'm just going to say your analogy was dead on. Except for ubering to Chateau Mormont. No one ubers there. We uber to to the latest brunch or night hot spot (which changes at least once month). Or in my case, I just uber to West Hollywood, so much better

[Portia]

Totally hijacking this thread, but I'm just going to say your analogy was dead on. Except for ubering to Chateau Mormont. No one ubers there. We uber to to the latest brunch or night hot spot (which changes at least once month). Or in my case, I just uber to West Hollywood, so much better :)

Once I have money again, I need to visit some friends in L.A. I'd Uber to brunch.

[bobtheenchantedone]

The thing is, having as many babies as possible isn't necessarily about family; it's about having as many babies as possible. They are not the same thing. When parents are financially secure and loving and healthy and good at raising kids (something the LDS church actually doesn't teach, like, at all, at least as far as the actual day-to-day and physical aspects go) then sure, having a large family can work out okay. However, most parents lack in at least one of those things.

All my parents had going for them was that loving thing. Admittedly, that's a good start, but it's not nearly enough. They've never been above the poverty line. My mother has depression, largely untreated, and is occasionally suicidal; my father is simply rather disconnected because gender roles. My siblings have always behaved better for me than they have for her or my father, which should tell you something about their parenting style. Not a single one of us has grown up without at least some mental/emotional issues. My sisters are medicated so they'll behave better and largely neglected; what parenting my parents had in them has petered out over the past decade or so and yet my youngest sister is only six.

I don't doubt my parents love all of us, and I know I love my younger sisters, but my parents should not have had so many children. I know I'm biased, but I'm going to go ahead and say that most people should not have that many children, and when it seems to work out well it's usually due to the oldest sibling or two being parents instead of kids (and heaven help the younger children if the older ones aren't kind and mature beyond their years; I shudder to think what would have happened had my brother been born first instead of me). I personally will have no more than two or three children and a big **** YOU to anyone who would presume to tell me that I'm doing it wrong.

I don't believe God would rather hurry souls to earth to be possibly neglected or abused in huge families than have them wait a little longer to be born into a smaller and more stable family.

[Zedability]

I agree that people absolutely have to do what's right for them and not just play into the cultural stereotype. On the other hand, there's a family in my home ward that has 11 kids and adopted 2 cousins when their parents died. The dad is a lawyer and the kids have always been well provided for. They've all grown up and gone on to be successful. They have their quirks and problems but no more so than anyone born into an average family. Their youngest is 15 or 16 now and is a great young man. Large families aren't ALWAYS bad. People just have to actually follow the Spirit (I agree God wouldn't want kids born in a family that can't handle them) and not the "Spirit" of following popular opinion.

[bobtheenchantedone]

That's the point I was trying to go for. It can work out well if the parents are totally dedicated and really want all the kids. Things don't go so well when the mom just likes babies or they're just "multiplying and replenishing the earth" with no regard for their personal feelings, wishes, or abilities, and that's unfortunately the more common scenario.

[mic0]

bob, how many kids are in your family? Just curious, and I do agree with you on all your points.

Also, weird aside which I think I've mentioned before, but as a kid I thought that for sure a sign of the second coming would be when people had fewer and fewer children because that would mean there were less souls that needed to come to Earth and so it was almost time. Totally made sense. It also made sense to me because I thought if 1/3rd of the people in heaven had gone against god's plan then that meant there was a finite number of people there in the first place. (PS, if it isn't clear, I don't really agree that replenish and populate the earth (look how rusty my bible quotes are getting) is terribly applicable these days and while it is fine to have kids, having more than you can reasonably support is... well, irresponsible).

[Concorde]

I agree with a lot of what's being said here. Large families are almost a status symbol, instead of something the parents actually were capable of caring for and wanting just for the joy of having several children.

My family had five kids and my mother was NOT fit to be a mother. She admitted disliking children and was VERY hands off. My father was also never home, so I ended up raising my siblings because my older brother was incredibly sadistic as a child and not to be trusted. I'm a crusty, aggressive person because I had to be to care for my three younger siblings from the age of 8 up. But at the same time, I was a total softy and mature beyond my years. I was painfully aware at school that I didn't fit in with anyone my age, despite being the youngest in my grade by far, because I was playing the role of mother at home. I still can't eat canned soup to this day because it was all I could manage to make for my siblings every evening for dinner until I was 11 and figured out stoves well enough that my mother wouldn't yell at me. I was so painfully inadequate and I knew it. We were incredibly fractured- my parents were neglectful and I was desperately trying to be everything to my younger siblings while fending off my abusive older brother. Things are better now that we're all getting older and can take care of ourselves and there's only two kids at home now, but my younger years were not ones that I look back on with much fondness. But yeah, moral of that story is that my parents shouldn't have had more than three kids max.

And then I look at my boyfriend who is the oldest of six and I'm like "Well crap, I never wanted more than 3 kids max before I started dating you, and now I want like 5 or 6 because you know what a family should look like." His parents were well equipped for six kids and his family is seriously awesome. If I didn't happen to also like him I might be tempted to stick around just for the family. They're all so close and they actually do things together and respect each other and love is not conditional on your current accomplishments. It's so foreign to me, but also so nice, but sometimes after being with his family I just go home sad because I never had what they had and I will never experience it the way they did. Which leads me to want a big family so I can finally have what I didn't get to have. But then those are selfish motives, right?

There was a lady in my ward growing up who just loved babies and loved being pregnant. So she just had tons of babies. Like 8 or 9. And once the kid hit five they kind of were shunted to the side for the next new baby coming along. She was pregnant at her eldest daughter's wedding at like 23. It was so weird to me and I felt terribly for her children. Her favorite thing to do was whip out her breast in the middle of Beehives and start nursing whatever kid was toddling around and then say things like "Now girls, did you know that you can make love without having sex?" and use her breast to punctuate various points about sex positions and how she believed birth control would render you infertile if you used it.

You guys my childhood was so messed up....

[bobtheenchantedone]

Aw Concorde, sad fist bumps for being moms to our siblings!

Mico, there are 8 total. 20 year span. I'd live in fear of there being more but my mom got an IUD and has a cat-like dog to baby now.

[Concorde]

Fist bump!

Also I read that really wrong and thought your mother had birthed a cat like dog and was mildly horrified.

[Portia]

Man, this is all so foreign to me. I knew these stories, but they're still depressing.

My grandma, my mom, and I all strongly dislike babies, but are mature competent adults who can usually rise to the occasion. I never learned laundry or cooking or driving because my mom was a control freak. (She did want me to drive eventually, but I was wracked by anxiety). I think she would have been happiest with one or two and a rich, sophisticated husband. But we weren't in poverty or heating up gruel or whatever. Shrug. Our mental stuff is on the high functioning side.

Who knows how we keep reproducing -- our stunning good looks and natural charisma, I suppose. My grandma's paternal side is delightfully dysfunctional, like we're talking Dickensian, here.

Current plan is to have one perfect intelligent quiet child with a trust fund and then tie the tubes. Who says a small family can't be a status symbol too? ;-)

If I had my kid by 32 I'm reasonably free by 50. That's not terrible, I'll probably live to 90. I'd work full time too. I think it's better for most kids.

[Portia]

I'm also wondering if things like education, food, personal space, and good boundaries aren't more important than mushy notions of "love." My parents weren't terribly affectionate, but I'd wager they were in many ways BETTER at being adults than a lot of these here. It's stressful to me just to think about. We were a Duty family more than a Love one, I think.

[Katya]

And then I look at my boyfriend who is the oldest of six and I'm like "Well crap, I never wanted more than 3 kids max before I started dating you, and now I want like 5 or 6 because you know what a family should look like." His parents were well equipped for six kids and his family is seriously awesome. If I didn't happen to also like him I might be tempted to stick around just for the family.

Isn't that the premise of While You Were Sleeping?

They're all so close and they actually do things together and respect each other and love is not conditional on your current accomplishments. It's so foreign to me, but also so nice, but sometimes after being with his family I just go home sad because I never had what they had and I will never experience it the way they did.

This . . . is tough. And I honestly think it's the cause of a great deal of unnecessary pain in the Church because of the way we hold up certain types of families and lives as a righteous ideal. (It's one thing to see someone else have a kind of happiness that you didn't know or won't ever know. It's another thing to be told that your unhappiness was caused by unrighteousness.) Personally, I believe that the Atonement covers this kind of pain, but I'll acknowledge that I, within my mortal limitations, don't see a way for it to be made right, even with God's help, so this is one area where I have to rely on faith.

Which leads me to want a big family so I can finally have what I didn't get to have. But then those are selfish motives, right?

I don't think it's inherently selfish to want to have a big, happy family. I think the selfishness would come into play if you wanted to have a big family at the expense of the individual health or happiness of any of your family members. As long as you're willing to pay attention to the needs of your family and to change your plans if necessary, I don't see any problem with wanting a big family. It's pretty common for parents to want to give their children things they (the parents) never had growing up, and there are both healthy and unhealthy ways to go about that.

[Portia]

Last sentence: very profound.