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#80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:24 am
by Portia
This is in the "Soapbox" subsection because I feel that Mr. Insomniac's answer presumes an awful lot of bad faith on the part of this person. It's histrionic, in my opinion, to call a valid debate "stupid" and then proceed with rhetorical pulpit-pounding. I think his arguments could be well-served by the "Logical Fallacies" course in the hypothetical class on Common Sense.

This idea that nothing, nothing, NOTHING can change one's viewpoint is so foreign to me as to be nonsensical. That's like saying that even with a preponderance of evidence, textual, photographic, and sworn witnesses, that you will never, ever, ever, ever (getting back together) believe that your girlfriend/fiancée/wife is cheating on you. Obviously that's an emotional, highly-charged situation, but it seems to be willfully ignorant, unbecoming in a college student, to say that NOTHING will change your mind on that point. Making a similar argument about the foundational claims of a religion that admits little room for "metaphorical" interpretations of truth seems intellectually dishonest, at best. It's this kind of rhetoric that makes so many throw around terms like "brainwashed."

The person wasn't attacking you, you read that into the situation. It's very Canadian to say, can't we get all along, hey, quantum mechanics! but when you Internet-yell at someone that you can "lead a horse to TRUTH" and patronizingly tell someone how their time is BETTER SPENT, you don't win allies, dude. You come across as whiny and could be very alienating to people with (a) doubts (b) their own strong, contradictory convictions (c) a low tolerance for people with a persecution complex.

It's Bill Nye, not Bill Maher. WHO DOESN'T LOVE BILL NYE SHEESH.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:05 am
by Zedability
I am so freaking tired of people here dismissing every possible opinion of mine as "very Canadian," no matter what the subject is or what reasons I have for believing it, just because they disagree with me. I know it's easier to dismiss it as Canadian because nobody has to take Canada seriously, instead of actually considering my idea, but can you say logical fallacy much? Congratulations, you have now employed the same defence mechanism as my hardline Utah-Republican Philosophy 150 professor and the Texan freshmen in my class.

Sorry I know your post was more about Insomniac than me, but dismissing my opinion that I've devoted a good chunk of my life to thoughtfully developing as "Canadian" and not considering it seriously is patronizing, fallacious, and frankly insulting.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:13 am
by Digit
The fifth paragraph of Mr. Insomniac's answer about not being dissuaded by even the subjects themselves about their prophethood, amongst other convictions, actually reminded me of something English :)

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:47 am
by mic0
Zed, your answer sounded reasonable and well thought out to me, and I really think Canadian is an odd choice of adjective for it. And I think you made a good point though without directly stating it (or you did state it and I'm still asleep), which is that it is important to be willing to entertain the idea that you are wrong. Scientists definitely forget this in actual scientific studies, people don't like being wrong, people don't like changing their views. But what if the spiritual evidence changes? What if one day a religious person has an experience, or over the course of a few years has multiple experiences, that are opposite the things they believe to be true? I mean, spiritual evidence is a real thing for individuals, but that doesn't make it necessarily unchanging.

Digit - classic scene!

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:54 am
by Digit
Speaking of quantum effects, this interesting video posits that reality, relativity, cause & effect, and free will are not all compatible. I tend to see the free will pillar to be the most dispensable of the incompatible pillars. As the narrator says, "What's more likely is that our brains evolved to understand space and time or cause and effect because those things have mattered for our survival for most of our evolutionary history."

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:59 am
by Marduk
What is left of the spiritual evidence "theory?" When one asserts that everything one believes is about "spiritual evidence" (which seems to basically mean whatever religious dogma one chooses to believe) and therefore unassailable by any sort of actual evidence, one has rendered the supposed "spiritual evidence" meaningless.

I have no problem with those who choose to believe in God. I believe myself. But asserting one's position as unassailable because of some kind of different evidence strikes me as saying one's opinions are unchangeable. Did we have "spiritual evidence" about the inferiority of black people? Don't others have "spiritual evidence" of the earth being only 6,000 years old, even if Mr. I.I. doesn't? Doesn't this mean that everyone can have "spiritual evidence" about basically anything in the world they say, making their convictions, whatever convictions they choose, outside the realm of real evidence? What do we do about those whose "spiritual evidence" directly conflicts?

The beauty of evidence is that it can be used to change fallacious opinions. "Spiritual evidence" can do no such thing, because it only exists in the eyes of the observer.

(And Zed, for the record, I view calling an opinion, or anything else really, as being "very Canadian" to be a good thing. We could do well to be more Canadian.)

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:06 am
by Digit
Marduk, your words remid me of those of Penn Jillette in this piece on big think.
Penn Jillette wrote:I think there's a real reality out there and the people who say "I believe in God because I feel that there's some higher power in the universe"—the problem I have with that is that once you've said you believe something that you can't prove to someone else you have completely walled yourself off from the world.

And you've essentially said no one can talk to you and you can talk to no one. You've also given license to everybody else who feels that. If you say to me "I can't prove it Penn, but I have a feeling in my heart that there is a power over everything that connects us," why can't Charlie Manson say "I can't prove it but I can have a feeling that the Beatles are telling us to kill Sharon Tate and that the race riots are coming?" Why can't Al Qaeda say "I have a feeling in my heart that we need to kill these particular infidels?" Why can't the men who tortured and disfigured Ayaan Hirsi Ali—why isn't what they feel in their heart valid?

The problem is if you have a sense of fairness simply by saying you believe in a higher power because you believe in it, you've automatically given license to anyone else that wants to say that.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:07 am
by Zedability
You'd quit thinking it was a good thing after 3 years of people using it as an excuse to dismiss literally everything you say whenever people disagree with you, that's all I'm saying.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:09 am
by Marduk
You're right, sorry, I didn't mean to dismiss how you are feeling.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:02 pm
by Portia
Marduk wrote:(And Zed, for the record, I view calling an opinion, or anything else really, as being "very Canadian" to be a good thing. We could do well to be more Canadian.)
That's actually much more what I was driving at. Although I disagreed with a previous answer of Zed's (about "if it weren't true, would you want to know?" where she gave what seemed to be a heartfelt story of her own spiritual journey on her mission - the mission? - but in my view didn't actually engage the question), still, I appreciate a non-combative, non-persecuted tone, always. :-)

I think that it's somewhat of a false equivalency, because most scientists would reject the so-called evidence for the truth claims of Mormonism out of hand, unlike the evidence for Newtonian physics, but at least it allows for the possibility of alternate viewpoints and good faith on the part of the reader.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:37 pm
by Portia
There has been a lot of talk lately of readers respecting writers and not unduly singling them out. I think that's a good principle. Respect goes both ways: after multiple rereads, I honestly think that Insomniac attacked and belittled the person merely for asking the question. For all we know, the man or woman is an equally devout believer and posed it as a thought exercise. If your epistemology is so weak that merely hearing the word "atheist" sends you into what appears to be a tizzy, it seems suspicious to me.

I wouldn't have posted if I merely disagreed with his worldview (I think I can predict THAT in 90% of cases). I just thought that his dismissal was smug and a good illustration of how to alienate people who disagree with you.

If I came across as equally smug in my reference to Zedability and what I see as her trademark even-handedness, on the board and off, I apologize. It is probably no more enjoyable to be Murica-splained than Mormon-splained!

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:29 pm
by Zedability
Apology accepted. Murica-splained made me laugh :)

Honestly though I don't feel like my point of view is particularly Canadian. It's much more Canadian to be on one side of the debate or other, but avoid discussing it in order to avoid arguments and offense. It's still not very common to actually bridge the two sides in your own personal opinion.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:23 pm
by Whistler
http://digest.bps.org.uk/2015/01/when-o ... ed-by.html - "When our beliefs are threatened by facts, we turn to unfalsifiable justifications"

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:46 pm
by mic0
Good summary article, Whistler. I think it is useful to note that the authors aren't trying to say that this is a "good" or "bad" thing, just a human thing and it is good to keep in mind.

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:40 pm
by Digit
Reminds me of this kid I knew who, while playing tag, if you ever almost got him, would yell in a shrill voice I'M BASE!!!

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:32 am
by Imogen
Digit wrote:Reminds me of this kid I knew who, while playing tag, if you ever almost got him, would yell in a shrill voice I'M BASE!!!
But what if all your base were belong to me? THEN WHAT, KID?!

Re: #80648 - "What, if anything, would change your mind?"

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:32 am
by Portia
Imogen wrote:
Digit wrote:Reminds me of this kid I knew who, while playing tag, if you ever almost got him, would yell in a shrill voice I'M BASE!!!
But what if all your base were belong to me? THEN WHAT, KID?!
#QOTD