#45835--Tithing and Income

[Darth Fedora]

I don't really see how finding places where the word "income" is specifically used in reference to tithing means that you should pay tithing pre-taxes. I mean, my taxes are deducted from my paycheck, so I never see that money at all. It certainly never "came in" to me, so I don't think it's accurate to call that my income.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

I don't really see how finding places where the word "income" is specifically used in reference to tithing means that you should pay tithing pre-taxes. I mean, my taxes are deducted from my paycheck, so I never see that money at all. It certainly never "came in" to me, so I don't think it's accurate to call that my income.

As the writers said, it is everyone's decision between them and the Lord. For me, I pay based on the full paycheck, because although I never see all the money, it is attributed to me, and it is based off how much I make that the government takes out the taxes. If it turns out that I am paying more than necessary, than hopefully I receive a little more blessings by doing so.

As for official word, I would rather see the official letter first, rather than hear about it from another reader, because up until this point, all I have heard from Bishops and the like is that it is my choice.

[TheAnswerIs42]

Darth, you took the words right out of my mouth. I came to this forum to say just about that exact thing. It is my personal interpretation that my husband's salary is two parts- our income, and the government's income they took before we got our part. Others can feel differently, but I really didn't see how that quote proved the opposite point at all. Still just up to personal interpretation the way I see it, even after the official quote.

[Fredjikrang]

Yeah, I have never seen the money that my employer pays to the government as income either. I usually pay tithing on any money that I actually see, so I pay on what gets deposited in my bank account and any tax refund or other income that I get.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I pay tithing on my gross, mostly because that's what my parents have always done.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

I pay my tithing on the money before the taxes are taken out of it, but if I'm saving for something else, like say right now for example I'm saving 40% for college and a mission, so I save that 40% baseed on after taxes.

[Benvolio]

This variety of approaches seems to validate the Church's refusal to come down on one definitive rule for paying tithing. There would have to be little adjustments or exceptions, and no one wants to have to hire an accountant just to pay tithing.

[Werf_Must]

I pay on my increase (as it talks about in the scriptures), and my increase does not include money that was taken from me before I ever touched it (so I am another for the after-tax vote)

[Unit of Energy]

I don't know that it really matters, so long as you're consistent and comfortable with how you pay.

[OptimusPrime]

This is the way I see it. Taxes are your income being diverted directly to the government. It's what you pay, from your increase, to live in this country. You may not see the money, but you receive the benefit of it, from national defense down to public schools. I also have medical insurance payments taken directly from my paycheck, so I never see that money in my bank account either. It doesn't mean it wasn't part of my income. If I had no medical insurance, I would have gotten that money, just as I would have gotten the tax money if I somehow lived in a country without taxes. If we switched to government-sponsored health care, would you stop paying tithing on money used for that purpose that's now going to the government?

Another thought - if someone asks you how much money you make, would you tell them your salary/wage, or your net? Our pride tells us to say salary to man and our selfishness tells us to say net to God.

Don't get me wrong, paying any amount of tithing is good, and you will be blessed for it, but the government's take is still your money. If you're unsatisfied with the amount the government takes, and often wastes, in taxes (as I am) ostensibly for your benefit, then vote for fiscally conservative politicians. But don't pretend that just because the government takes it directly from your paycheck that it wasn't part of your increase. That's your money they're wasting.

[xkcd ***]

Wow. Never thought of it that way. Thank you.

[Fredjikrang]

Don't get me wrong, paying any amount of tithing is good, and you will be blessed for it, but the government's take is still your money. If you're unsatisfied with the amount the government takes, and often wastes, in taxes (as I am) ostensibly for your benefit, then vote for fiscally conservative politicians. But don't pretend that just because the government takes it directly from your paycheck that it wasn't part of your increase. That's your money they're wasting.

I can see your point, but I disagree. I have always seen the money that the government gets from my employer (aka the taxes listed on my paycheck) as exactly that, money that the government gets from my employer.

Of course, I am against this anyway since I think that the US would have a radically different political structure if regular employees paid taxes instead of their employers. Not sure if it would be a good change or a bad change (the government would definitely have a lot less money) but it seems like that is the way it should be.

[OptimusPrime]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. The employers funnel your money to the government on your behalf (on orders of the government) so that you pay your taxes instead of spending it. It is a percentage of your income. That's why it's called "income tax". If the government were to suddenly lower taxes, YOU would pocket the difference, not your employer, because your employer is still contracted to pay you that amount (minus taxes). There are certain taxes an employer pays, such as half your social security benefits, which I would not consider tithe-able income, because those come out of the employers' pockets, not your income, and you would not see that money if the tax were to be eliminated.

[OptimusPrime]

Another thought -- if the employer is paying the income tax, why do you get the income tax return?

[wired]

As everyone here asserts their reasoning towards this subject, we should be reminded that without some official procedure, policy, or doctrine set forth (either through a message from the 1st Presidency, an addendum to the Church Handbook of Instruction, or some piece of revelation sustained by the general authorities of the Church), all of this reasoning is simply stating their own standard. Whether "income" means net or gross is in the realm of whether or not the Word of Wisdom forbids caffeine. (Very unexpectedly, I was able to find less evidence of general authorities feeling one way or another on this subject then on the caffeine subject, which, many general authorities are decidedly against the use of caffeine. Still, it amounts to their opinion, and not to doctrine.) The most expansive statement found on the subject is in a letter from the First Presidency in 1970:

"What is a proper tithe?

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly. (First Presidency Statement, 19 March 1970, emphasis added)"

While the method we use to pay tithing is one-tenth of income, the question should not solely be the method established to determine that amount. Instead, the method should be the means to an end where we can answer the question, "Am I making payment according to what I feel I owe the Lord?"

Furthermore, the method we use is secondary to the attitude we have. Dr. Dennis Wright taught me an interesting principle. Though the United Order as a method of consecration is no longer in use, consecration itself is still a requirement of Church members. (Nowhere in the scriptures does the Lord revoke consecration itself, but merely the funding methods of the Church change from the United Order to a law of tithing.) More important than what amounts to a 1-2%/income increase in a tithing paycheck, is whether or not the person submitting the check has a heart ready to write out the rest of his or her bank account if the Lord required it.

[Yarjka]

I used to be all about paying on the gross, since taxes are money you spend to live in this country ... however, I changed my position on this when I found out how much taxes are in certain countries. In Denmark, for example, some people pay up to 68% in taxes. So, a person makes 100 dollars, the government takes 68 dollars, and tithing would be ten dollars, leaving the person with a whopping total of 22 dollars. By extension, if ever a country was to tax, say, 91%, the person would pay 91 dollars to taxes, 10 dollars to tithing, and ... uh oh, looks like the person is in debt 1 dollar. God doesn't want us in debt, and I believe he wants all people to pay the same set rate for tithing. I have therefore changed to the paying on the net crowd (although I also pay on any tax rebate/refund checks I receive, naturally). Of course, people are free to pay their tithing however they want ... it's the spirit in which it is payed that is most important (this includes not trying to hide any amount from the Lord that you feel you should be giving to him).

[Katya]

I believe [God] wants all people to pay the same set rate for tithing.

That's an interesting assumption. Do you think it's true of all gospel principles, i.e., He wants us all to follow the Word of Wisdom in the same way?

[chillygator]

I believe [God] wants all people to pay the same set rate for tithing.

That's an interesting assumption. Do you think it's true of all gospel principles, i.e., He wants us all to follow the Word of Wisdom in the same way?

While we're at those, I'd like to see an Official Sabbath Day Policy*. That could be interesting.


*I don't actually want to see that.

[Benvolio]

There should be specifically proscribed methods for observing the Sabbath, obeying the Word of Wisdom, paying tithing, dressing modestly, etc. And then we would add a hedge around the law, to make sure we never broke them. That worked great with the Law of Moses.

[Wisteria]

Hm. So I'm probably getting myself into deeper water than I can swim in here, but the interesting thing about a lot of European countries like Denmark is taht the taxes are so high because they're socialist, or socialistic, at least. So the taxes are really high, but that's because a lot of that money's being funneled back to the people for things that Americans pay for out of our pocketed income. Does anyone know more about this than I?