#45835--Tithing and Income

[jooniper]

I don't think we have the right to interpret God's laws. I do agree that we need the guidance of the Holy Ghost to know how to put into practice the laws, but we are not judged soley by our understanding or interpretation of the law.

I don't think it's a matter of "right" to interpret. "Interpretation" is just a part of any human communication. You say words by making a bunch of sounds, my brain hears those sounds and assigns meaning.
The whole problem here is that some people simply assign different meanings to words.

"So what is a tithing? The Lord has given us His definition: “And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever.”2 Please note that the tithe is not just any freewill offering, nor is it a 20th or some other fraction of our annual interest or income.

President Howard W. Hunter stated it this way: “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.”3 "

I'm one who now pays on the gross and I still don't think these quotes make it clear. Why? Because people have different definitions of words like "profit, compensation, and increase". It isn't a rationalization, it's simply a different definition. Language can be ambiguous. If it wasn't, then thousands of Lawyers, legislators and judges would be out of a job, because for many of them, their profession revolves around the fact that laws can be interpreted differently- even laws specifically written out to be as clear as possible. There are amendments to laws all the time. In our less secular example, amendments and clarification comes through personal revelation, or, if it's something that God wants crystal clear (and I don't think tithing is one of those, judging by the revelation we already have) revelation from those in authority.

In which commandment is it okay to define what it means to keep that commandment, and then expect God to be bound to your definition? That's what I'm hearing in regard to tithing. Any amount we pay is keeping the commandment, and God will honor that as though we were fully keeping the commandment, as long as we are doing our best and we are sincere.

I never said any amount we pay is ok- I said that if we are following the commandment, using what we believe to be God's definition, with exactness, then we are keeping the commandment.

[vorpal blade]

I don't think we have the right to interpret God's laws. I do agree that we need the guidance of the Holy Ghost to know how to put into practice the laws, but we are not judged soley by our understanding or interpretation of the law.

I don't think it's a matter of "right" to interpret. "Interpretation" is just a part of any human communication. You say words by making a bunch of sounds, my brain hears those sounds and assigns meaning.
The whole problem here is that some people simply assign different meanings to words.

I believe that the problem here is more than just simply assigning different meanings to words. The problem is that people assume that whatever meanings they assign to the words are correct or "good enough," as long as they sincerely believe that they are using God's definition. Do you see the difference? They can't be living the law of tithing using an incorrect understanding or interpretation of the law. They can make contributions, but it isn't the same as keeping the law if their interpretation differs from God's interpretation. It doesn't matter what they erroneously believe, except I'm sure God blesses them in a measure if they sincerely believe they are doing it right, more than He would bless them if they knew they were doing it wrong, but what they believe has absolutely no impact on what is the truth.

Unless our understanding is actually the correct understanding, good intentions are not enough. We cannot get by with a private interpretation. Eccl. 8: 1 "WHO is as the wise man? and who knoweth the interpretation of a thing? a man’s wisdom maketh his face to shine, and the boldness of his face shall be changed." 2 Pet. 1: 20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

[I never said any amount we pay is ok- I said that if we are following the commandment, using what we believe to be God's definition, with exactness, then we are keeping the commandment.

You did say "My point? I don't think the Lord cares what percentage we pay," which sounds a lot like "any amount we pay is ok."

Quoting again from Elder Johnson's talk on The Law of Tithing (November 2006) "My remarks this afternoon are intended as an invitation to those who have not yet gained a personal testimony of the full payment of tithing. There are many reasons that are used to not pay tithing, such as medical emergencies, debts, car or home repairs, educational expenses, and insurance. These reasons and others like them are very real and are lived and dealt with every day by many, if not most, of us. These tax our limited financial resources and, if we are not wise stewards of these resources, may result in the inability to meet our tithing obligation to the Lord. A lack of compliance with this eternal law is not to be taken lightly and can not only seriously impair our spiritual growth and development, but it can also limit the physical and temporal blessings that we could otherwise enjoy.
As President Spencer W. Kimball once said: “The Lord herein makes clear that tithing is his law and is required of all his followers. It is our honor and privilege, our safety and promise, our great blessing to live this law of God. To fail to meet this obligation in full is to deny ourselves the promises and is to omit a weighty matter. It is a transgression, not an inconsequential oversight.”1 "

I see President Kimbal saying that to fail to meet this obligation in full is to deny ourselves the promises. I don't see the General Authorities saying anything like "using what we believe to be God's defintion," or making any allowance for paying less than ten percent, in full, as the Lord defines it. The Law of Tithing isn't subject to private interpretation.

[jooniper]

You did say "My point? I don't think the Lord cares what percentage we pay," which sounds a lot like "any amount we pay is ok."

Sure it does if you take it out of context;). That was followed with "I think he cares that we are doing our honest best to follow the Law as we understand it." He knows me well enough to know if I'm purposefully twisting the definitions around to suit my needs. If I decide to pay 5% or 1%, then it's obviously not a sincere attempt to follow the Law. The law says 10%- that much is crystal clear. The term "income" is what is not clear. A payment of only 5% (either net or gross) would not be a sincere attempt to follow the law because the Lord knows that I define "10%" the same as most everyone else and anything less would be going against my own understanding.

So who's to say which definition of the word "income" is right? Forgive the snarkiness, but what makes you more capable of defining the word for members of the church than anyone else? The thing is, your definition is a more conservative one (one I agree with even), but even yours is your own private interpretation, using the meaning you assign to the word "income". I'm a linguistics graduate and I promise, there is no ultimate source for the "correct" definition of any word that every person is going to agree on (even the OED is debatable sometimes). The Lord hasn't given us a dictionary- instead he gave us PERSONAL revelation (which goes hand in hand with PERSONAL interpretation), to make up for possible misunderstandings of the Law or changes in language (language is after all a very fluid thing).

The Law of Tithing isn't subject to private interpretation.

I think you've completely missed (or at least not addressed) my point about EVERYTHING being subject to private interpretation. Not because because of a "loophole" in the system, but because interpretation is simply part of all communication. Because of the ambiguity and imperfection of human languages, there is no communication without interpretation. You can make it sound like "private interpretations" are devious things, but they are a necessary part of understanding- even your own understanding of paying on the gross is a private interpretation (unless you've been given stewardship to define it for the whole church).
I can say "this pen is purple" and my husband can say "the pen is blue" and we can both be right- it turns out my husband assigns a slightly different meaning to the words "blue" and "purple" and his perception is slightly different (true story, real argument we had). Unfortunately there is no definitive color-perception-and-naming source on the planet. Who's to say my "blue" is more correct than his "purple"? Shall we go off of popular consensus? I dont' think that's how spiritual matters should work. I think, for a spiritual matter, we can go ahead and use personal revelation, or discuss it with our Bishop, or wait for clarification from General Authorities... and accept that people have different perceptions and different meanings for some words.

The quotes you used at the end make it clear that tithing is important, that paying 10% is important, that it should be our top financial priority, that if we don't comply we'll be spiritually impaired. I agree with all of the above. But those quotes still don't say "by the way, the Lord's definition of "income" is... ________". Why? Because the different possible interpretations of that word aren't keeping anyone from putting their heart in the state the Lord requires. For the 22 years of my life I paid tithing on the net, I would have been willing to pay 50% or 100%- gross or net- if I thought that was what the Lord required. I made it my top financial priority, and my heart was in the same state of obedience as someone else with a slightly different interpretation. If the Lord had thought it important enough to send revelation to someone with stewardship over me and tell me "you should be paying on the gross", I would have (as a matter of fact, that's what happened, and I did) but I feel no more blessed now, no more obedient and no more worthy than before. If the goal of the commandment is to get our heart in that state, to show the Lord our willingness to commit, plan ahead, sacrifice, contribute and give 100% of what the Lord requires... then what's the problem with a differing interpretation so long as it meets that goal?

with that, I think I need to bow out, as (you can probably tell) I have the ability to get deeply sucked into online debate and lose a lot of time to it. So here, have a cartoon that I look at whenever I realize I'm getting sucked into an online debate too deeply again:):

[Nanti-SARRMM]

I say Jooniper wins based solely on posting that comic.

[Katya]

I say Jooniper wins based solely on posting that comic.

Agreed.

[bismark]

The problem is that people assume that whatever meanings they assign to the words are correct or "good enough," as long as they sincerely believe that they are using God's definition. Do you see the difference? They can't be living the law of tithing using an incorrect understanding or interpretation of the law.

so where is the correct definition or interpretation? i think the issue is that we haven't been given one, laid out in plain and simple terms. thus it is up to personal revelation, which i am inclined to believe at times will bring people to different answers.. will it in this case? dunno, maybe not and the Lord will reveal the exact same perfect method to each and every sincere person, but since i see that other people do have different interpretations, i am in no position to say that mine is definitely the right one (i used to pay on net and tax returns, but now i pay on gross and not on tax returns if it matters).

[vorpal blade]

That was a funny cartoon, jooniper. It is hard to argue against a funny cartoon, especially after the other person has retired from the field.

If I am to be labeled wrong for something, I’d prefer to be first clearly understood. I think you were doing a good job attacking the point of view that there is only one definition of income and other definitions of income prevent a person from honestly and truly putting his heart into keeping the law of tithing. That’s easy for me to say, since that is not my point of view, and it is obviously not your point of view. In some ways we are a lot closer to believing the same things then you might expect. In my opinion.

First I’d like to clear up the little matter of things taken out of context.

You did say "My point? I don't think the Lord cares what percentage we pay," which sounds a lot like "any amount we pay is ok."

Sure it does if you take it out of context;). That was followed with "I think he cares that we are doing our honest best to follow the Law as we understand it." He knows me well enough to know if I'm purposefully twisting the definitions around to suit my needs. If I decide to pay 5% or 1%, then it's obviously not a sincere attempt to follow the Law. The law says 10%- that much is crystal clear. The term "income" is what is not clear. A payment of only 5% (either net or gross) would not be a sincere attempt to follow the law because the Lord knows that I define "10%" the same as most everyone else and anything less would be going against my own understanding.

It also sounds similar if you don’t take me out of context. My original statement was “Any amount we pay is keeping the commandment, and God will honor that as though we were fully keeping the commandment, as long as we are doing our best and we are sincere.”

So who's to say which definition of the word "income" is right? Forgive the snarkiness, but what makes you more capable of defining the word for members of the church than anyone else? The thing is, your definition is a more conservative one (one I agree with even), but even yours is your own private interpretation, using the meaning you assign to the word "income".

If you will look back through my posts you will find that I haven’t given a definition of income. I don’t have a detailed definition of income for everyone. I’ve just been repeating the words of the prophets. My interest in this topic is not to discuss whether we should pay on the net or on the gross. I’ve been trying to talk about our attitudes in keeping the commandments.

I'm a linguistics graduate and I promise, there is no ultimate source for the "correct" definition of any word that every person is going to agree on (even the OED is debatable sometimes). The Lord hasn't given us a dictionary- instead he gave us PERSONAL revelation (which goes hand in hand with PERSONAL interpretation), to make up for possible misunderstandings of the Law or changes in language (language is after all a very fluid thing).

My point of view exactly.

I think you've completely missed (or at least not addressed) my point about EVERYTHING being subject to private interpretation. Not because because of a "loophole" in the system, but because interpretation is simply part of all communication. Because of the ambiguity and imperfection of human languages, there is no communication without interpretation.

I’m sorry, the reason I haven’t more fully addressed this point is because there is no disagreement. Human communication is all about interpretation of what we believe others mean, based on our own experiences.

You can make it sound like "private interpretations" are devious things, but they are a necessary part of understanding- even your own understanding of paying on the gross is a private interpretation (unless you've been given stewardship to define it for the whole church).

As I’ve said, I haven’t given my interpretation. But what does the scripture mean that no prophecy of the scripture is of private interpretation? If you mean that God gave us the Holy Ghost to understand the scriptures, then we are in agreement.

Shall we go off of popular consensus? I dont' think that's how spiritual matters should work. I think, for a spiritual matter, we can go ahead and use personal revelation, or discuss it with our Bishop, or wait for clarification from General Authorities... and accept that people have different perceptions and different meanings for some words.

I agree. You have no argument with me there.

The quotes you used at the end make it clear that tithing is important, that paying 10% is important, that it should be our top financial priority, that if we don't comply we'll be spiritually impaired. I agree with all of the above. But those quotes still don't say "by the way, the Lord's definition of "income" is... ________". Why? Because the different possible interpretations of that word aren't keeping anyone from putting their heart in the state the Lord requires.

I agree, they don't spell out in detail the Lord’s definition of “income.” Rarely does the Lord give details on how to keep any of his commandments. We are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy. What exactly does that mean? No travel? No television? No entertainment? There is wisdom in not giving out specific details, meant for everyone in all times and in all places and in all circumstances. I think one of the reasons for the lack of specificity is to help us to learn to rely on the Spirit. I don't agree with the reason you gave.

If the Lord had thought it important enough to send revelation to someone with stewardship over me and tell me "you should be paying on the gross", I would have (as a matter of fact, that's what happened, and I did) but I feel no more blessed now, no more obedient and no more worthy than before.

This is starting to get to the issue I wanted to discuss. Let’s take the case of someone who has been paying tithing on the net income, after taxes are subtracted. The Lord reveals to that person that he should have been paying on his gross income. As an example, let’s say that the person was earning $10,000 and paying $2,000 in taxes. By paying on the after-taxes income he paid $800 in tithing. So he was paying 8% of his gross income for tithing. There are different attitudes a person might have after the Lord has shown him the error of his ways. Consider these two:

Attitude One. “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. But I believed then and I believe now that I was paying a full tithing to the best of my understanding, so I believe I am no more blessed now, no more obedient now, and no more worthy now than I was before.”

Attitude Two. “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. Before I came to this realization I was paying just 8% of my income for tithing, which is not a full 10%, so I now know I was under condemnation for not living the law of tithing. I need to repent of failing to pay tithing and now pay on what I have learned is the Lord’s definition of income for me. The Lord is forgiving, and I am looking forward to an increase in blessings.”

Does it matter whether we have Attitude One or Attitude Two? Well, Attitude One is certainly a more comfortable attitude. In either Attitude One or Two you keep the commandments as best you know how, and for the right reasons.

I think there is an important difference in the two attitudes, and I believe Attitude Two is better. In Attitude Two the person believes that he was previously in the wrong and needs to apologize to the Lord. He needs to ask forgiveness for a law he was previously not fully obeying. Attitude One sees no need to ask forgiveness because he believes that the Lord could not have been happier with the way he was already keeping the commandment, up until he was given new light and knowledge.

If Attitude One were correct then the principle here would be that we are living a law perfectly as long as we are living it to the best, honest extent we know how. I was trying to show previously that if this were a correct principle then a person who defined “income” as his increase in his savings account would be just as blessed as the person who had asked the Lord to define income for him. He would be living the law perfectly, and could hold his head up and say, “I am a full tithe payer.” At least one reader believed that such a person should not have a temple recommend. Others choose to lecture me on the evils of judging others, and some evidently would go to the extreme and say that as long as he honestly thinks he’s right, not even God can say he isn’t perfectly keeping the law of tithing.

In Attitude One we are on the path to perfection, but we aren’t moving along the path. Three things motivate us to move forward; fear, sense of duty, and love. If we have Attitude One we have no fear that we are not living the commandments, because we think that if we are living up to the level of our understanding then we are doing all that is expected of us. Similarly we believe that we are doing our duty, because our duty is to obey what we already know. Love does not motivate us because we believe that God couldn’t be happier with us just the way we are. So we sit around complacently saying “all is well in Zion,” until someone in authority finds us and convinces us of a better way to live a particular commandment. Then we adjust and sit some more.

When we have Attitude Two we believe that “For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward (D&C 58:26).” Interesting, "no reward" presumably after keeping all the commandmenst as perfectly as he knew how.

If the goal of the commandment is to get our heart in that state, to show the Lord our willingness to commit, plan ahead, sacrifice, contribute and give 100% of what the Lord requires... then what's the problem with a differing interpretation so long as it meets that goal?

The Lord requires us to do more than he commands, and much more than what we currently understand he commands. The goal is to come unto Christ and be perfect. Getting our heart in the proper state is just a start. An interpretation different from the Lord’s interpretation is slothful and not wise, and does not meet the Lord’s goal for us. We must seek out the Lord’s interpretation of each commandment for us. So, no, I don't think you have the goal right.

Well, I don’t have a cute cartoon to end with, but I do have a joke. Team A was playing football with Team B, and Team B was doing extremely poorly. At the half, with a score of 105 to 0, Team A quit in disgust. After three downs in the second half, with no opposition, Team B finally crossed the goal line.

I feel a little like Team B.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Are you both finished, or do I need to grab more popcorn?

then what's the problem with a differing interpretation so long as it meets that goal?

An interpretation different from the Lord’s interpretation is slothful and not wise, and does not meet the Lord’s goal for us.

I think we can all agree that if we have a differing interpretation of a commandment given to us by God or his prophet, we are wrong.

But if two members have differing interpretations over paying tithing on the net or gross, when no such edict has been given over which is right or wrong, both members are right.

Now, you are both right and talking about interpretation of revelation in different aspects. There. Discussion over. You both win. Hazzah!

(there doesn't happen to be a lock feature in this message board does there?)

[vorpal blade]

The problem is that people assume that whatever meanings they assign to the words are correct or "good enough," as long as they sincerely believe that they are using God's definition. Do you see the difference? They can't be living the law of tithing using an incorrect understanding or interpretation of the law.

so where is the correct definition or interpretation? i think the issue is that we haven't been given one, laid out in plain and simple terms. thus it is up to personal revelation, which i am inclined to believe at times will bring people to different answers.. will it in this case? dunno, maybe not and the Lord will reveal the exact same perfect method to each and every sincere person, but since i see that other people do have different interpretations, i am in no position to say that mine is definitely the right one (i used to pay on net and tax returns, but now i pay on gross and not on tax returns if it matters).

I may be repeating myself here, but I believe that God has the only correct complete definition or interpretation for each person. Through the communication of the Spirit we can come to understand how to put into practice this as well as any other commandment from God. So, yes, I agree it is up to personal revelation. The Lord does not give detailed and specific rules. To do so might make the Law of Tithing as complicated and convoluted as U.S. tax law. The understanding of such rigid rules might be out of reach of the ordinary person who is just trying to do what is right. We need to rely on the Spirit.

You and I cannot go beyond what the Lord has already said, but I don't think the lack of specificity is unique to this commandment. It seems to me that almost all of the commandments are given as broad principles. I wouldn't interpret a non-detailed commandment as an invitation to interpret it however we want. God doesn't give us commandments in the way he does because he is indifferent to the way we interpret his laws. We don't negotiate with the Lord the proper interpretation. People can interpret it incorrectly. Not incorrectly according to your understanding or my understanding, but according to God's understanding.

As I said before, I think the important point is our attitude. We should not wait to be commanded in all things, but seek out from God how he wants us to live the Law of Tithing. And all other laws, as well. Diligence will be rewarded, slothfulness will not.

[vorpal blade]

But if two members have differing interpretations over paying tithing on the net or gross, when no such edict has been given over which is right or wrong, both members are right.

No, both members may be wrong, if what they are doing goes against God's will. It doesn't matter whether or not any edict has been given. All that matters is whether they are living in harmony with the way the Lord wants them to live the commandment. God may or may not have spoken on the subject. The lack of official clarification does not relieve us of the responsibility to pray and find out from God directly what we should do.

[Fredjikrang]

There is a lock feature but I see no reason to use it to interrupt a reasonable conversation or debate. I generally only lock threads if they are offensive, exceedingly pointless (post count boosters), or are flame wars. This thread is none of the above.

[xkcd ***]

What are flame wars?

[Fredjikrang]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war

[Nanti-SARRMM]

No, both members may be wrong, if what they are doing goes against God's will.

That is true. (italics mine)

It doesn't matter whether or not any edict has been given. All that matters is whether they are living in harmony with the way the Lord wants them to live the commandment. God may or may not have spoken on the subject. The lack of official clarification does not relieve us of the responsibility to pray and find out from God directly what we should do.

I believe we are agreeing with each other actually. Both may have separate answers, but if they both are following what they have felt through prayer, they are both right.

[vorpal blade]

I believe we are agreeing with each other actually. Both may have separate answers, but if they both are following what they have felt through prayer, they are both right.

Okay. I can agree with that. It sounds simple enough.

A couple of days ago I was reading the latest (July 2008) Ensign and came across the article about Henry Eyring, 1st Counselor in the First Presidency. Then I came to a part about Henry Eyring receiving inspiration in answer to prayer. I thought about how we should pray for direction in living the law of tithing, but sometimes we feel terrific about not receiving an answer. Here's the part I most wanted to share:

Following a pause, Kathleen said, “Will you pray about it?”

At that stage in his marriage, Hal knew better than to ignore his wife’s counsel. He got out of bed, knelt, and uttered a prayer. “I got no answer,” he says, “and I felt terrific about it because I didn’t want to go anywhere.”

It seems that even the First Presidency had to learn to follow the Spirit.

[bismark]

Attitude One. “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. But I believed then and I believe now that I was paying a full tithing to the best of my understanding, so I believe I am no more blessed now, no more obedient now, and no more worthy now than I was before.”

Attitude Two. “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. Before I came to this realization I was paying just 8% of my income for tithing, which is not a full 10%, so I now know I was under condemnation for not living the law of tithing. I need to repent of failing to pay tithing and now pay on what I have learned is the Lord’s definition of income for me. The Lord is forgiving, and I am looking forward to an increase in blessings.”

how about the much more realistic attitude three: “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. I am grateful to the Lord for having blessed me in the past despite my imperfect understanding, I am grateful to the Lord for having blessed me with greater light and knowledge, and I will continue to show the Lord gratitude by living this law to the best of my ability."

sorry, i just can't believe that the Lord will condemn anyone who truly believes they are living good principles. if he gives them further light and knowledge and they reject it, they will then fall under condemnation. but the faithful buddhist, the loving muslim, the charitable atheist, and the unknowingly part-tithe paying latter day saint will receive blessings and love from God. when they receive and accept more light and knowledge, then they will receive more blessings.

[jooniper]

Well, I was going to try and stay away, and got frightened when I saw vorpal blade's reply that I'd get pulled back in, since he did a good job of clarifying his position and I realized I had misunderstood his point of view at times, but then bismark summed it up what I was thinking beautifully!

So thank you, bismark, for helping me stay away from writing huge old posts when I don't have the time.
And thank you, Vorpal blade, for the stimulating debate and for managing to debate without taking it to a personal (flamewarish) level.

[Portia]

Attitude One. “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. But I believed then and I believe now that I was paying a full tithing to the best of my understanding, so I believe I am no more blessed now, no more obedient now, and no more worthy now than I was before.”

Attitude Two. “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. Before I came to this realization I was paying just 8% of my income for tithing, which is not a full 10%, so I now know I was under condemnation for not living the law of tithing. I need to repent of failing to pay tithing and now pay on what I have learned is the Lord’s definition of income for me. The Lord is forgiving, and I am looking forward to an increase in blessings.”

how about the much more realistic attitude three: “I honestly thought that I was paying a full tithing when I paid on my net income. Now my eyes are open and I believe that (for me, anyway) the Lord expects me now to pay on my gross income. At this point anything less than 10% on the gross would not be a full tithing for me. I am grateful to the Lord for having blessed me in the past despite my imperfect understanding, I am grateful to the Lord for having blessed me with greater light and knowledge, and I will continue to show the Lord gratitude by living this law to the best of my ability."

sorry, i just can't believe that the Lord will condemn anyone who truly believes they are living good principles. if he gives them further light and knowledge and they reject it, they will then fall under condemnation. but the faithful buddhist, the loving muslim, the charitable atheist, and the unknowingly part-tithe paying latter day saint will receive blessings and love from God. when they receive and accept more light and knowledge, then they will receive more blessings.

I'm with bismark 100% on this one. I honestly just don't think God cares whether he has been shortchanged X amount of dollars in X amount of time. It's sort of a "Sabbath made for man, not man for the Sabbath" deal to me. I don't think God needs my money--in a sense, it's his anyway. I think we pay tithing/fast offerings so we can (A) help others in this world (through temple work, feeding the poor, etc.) and (B) to learn self-control and sound financial principles.

So I don't think God is some miserly accountant with his Book of Life putting checkmarks of condemnation or blessing in my column.

I much prefer the view that tithing, like any other principle of Christianity, would help me become more fully the person I'd like to be.

[vorpal blade]

Bismark,

It seems you are a sort of designated spokesman for jooniper, and Portia is with you 100%.

To me your “attitude three” is not much different from my “attitude one.” I do note that in “attitude three” the person expects an increase of blessings. Since I have already given it as my opinion that “attitude two” is better than “attitude one,” we may have reached the point where we just disagree. However, I’d like to continue the discussion a little longer for two reasons. First, I’m curious about the point where are views differ. Right now that boundary seems a little fuzzy to me. The second reason is that, judging by the comments made, I may still be misunderstood.

Before I begin exploring where we are in agreement, I’d just like to say that I have enjoyed this discussion. I feel that I have learned some things, and that my perspective has been brought into sharper focus. I’m glad we can discuss this without a flame war.

As I understand it, we all agree that if a person knows the law, and chooses not to live it, then that person will fall under condemnation. If you study it out in your mind and you pray about it, and come to the conclusion that you should be paying on the gross rather than the net, then you would be wrong to continue paying on the net. That would displease God.

I notice, Bismark, that you used to pay on the net plus any tax return, but now you pay on the gross. Jooniper also used to pay on the net, but when she got married and her husband talked to her about paying on the gross she prayed about it and her understanding of the law changed. I think that is wonderful that the two of you were able to change. It shows character. I think we should all follow your example and try to find out for ourselves, rather than just assuming we are right.

Can we agree that God is pleased when we come to Him for clarification on how to live his commandments? Can we agree that we all actually have some responsibility or obligation to study it out in our mind and ask God for enlightenment in how to live each of his commandments? That God expects us, even requires us, to seek his will in all things? That it isn’t good enough just to accept the traditions of our fathers? We can’t just assume that we are fully living the commandment; we have a responsibility to find out for ourselves? Wouldn’t that attitude go a long way in helping us become the kind of people we would like to become?

Do we agree that God is less pleased with us when our attitude is casual, not anxious to find out that we might be incompletely keeping the commandments? Seems like the Lord was really displeased with the brother of Jared for not coming to the Lord for further instructions. Back in 1991 President Ezra T. Benson told the Church that the whole Church was under condemnation for failing to make use of the Book of Mormon as we should. As I see it, not knowing is not an excuse.

You once paid on the net, but now you understand that you should pay on the gross. Let me ask you, did the commandment change, or did your understanding of the commandment change? Jooniper says her understanding changed. If the commandment was the same when you were paying on the net, then at that time you weren’t fully keeping the commandment. We are agreed that you were keeping the commandment as best you understood at the time. We are agreed that you received blessings for that. Can we agree that in some measure God was displeased that you hadn’t been keeping the commandment in God’s eyes? Could not God have been displeased to some extent that you hadn’t previously asked Him whether you should pay on the gross or not?

When we lack a proper understanding of something it is called ignorance. You and jooniper paid on the net, ignorant of the fact that God wanted you to pay on the gross. We know that it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance (D&C 131:6). I read an interesting talk by Sterling W. Sill about how great a sin was ignorance. Ignorance, by itself, is a sin.

Can we agree that you ignorantly sinned in keeping the law of tithing when you were not paying on the gross? You both have since repented of that sin, and I’m sure you are forgiven. I’d just like to call a spade a spade.

I think we can agree that it isn’t so much the money per se as it is about our attitude toward paying tithing. Have we asked God to understand how much we should pay? Do we pay tithing willing, with a love of God in our heart? We agree that God is not an accountant concerned about nickels and dimes, but He does care if we try to shortchange Him, or we haven’t bothered to ask Him about our shortchanging Him. This attitude of casualness toward tithing, like any other principle of Christianity, inhibits us from becoming the people we want to become.

[Portia]

Can we agree that you ignorantly sinned in keeping the law of tithing when you were not paying on the gross? You both have since repented of that sin, and I’m sure you are forgiven. I’d just like to call a spade a spade.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, then, because I honestly don't see how "not paying on gross"="sin." In fact, I think it's conceivable that God could inspire someone to/be fine with someone pay(ing) on net one year after they had paid on gross the previous year.

I just thinking it's straining at gnats, personally, and not worth the energy to stress out about it. I think there are better things to do with my time than hem and haw over it, and I think most of us have ways we could become more Christlike that are more internal than external. It's sort of on the level of caffeine/no caffeine to me: I think there's room for personal differences, and that people don't necessarily have to repent, even if their views change over time.