#46899 Shiner

[vorpal blade]

We have a related topic in regard to shiny bruises (46784), but this seemed a somewhat different topic.

Polly Esther wrote:

<i>I wondered that also. So, I went on a search to find why anyone could look at a dull bruise and think it shined.

The use of the word "shiner" for "black eye" was first recorded 1904.

"Shiner" has racist tones. In the early 1900's the main occupation of the southern USA was shoe shining which employed mainly black people. At the time it was said, the skin of black people tended give off a shine or gleam.

The word shiner was first used in the context of shame.

Bruising caused by trauma to the eye usually turns a black color and the word "shiner" for black eye became a common form of slang.</i>

Her response seems quite similar to that of Alatea46 on Oct 21, 2005 at 4:18 am (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/34392)

<i>This answer was last edited on: Jan 28, 2006
American word �shiner� for "black eye" was first recorded 1904.

�Shiner� has racist tones. In the early 1900�s the main occupation
of the southern USA was shoe shining which employed mainly black
people. At the time it was said, the skin of black people tended
give off a shine or gleam.

The word shiner was first used in the context of shame.

Bruising caused by trauma to the eye usually turns a black colour
and the word �shiner� for black eye became a common form of slang.</i>

I have a few problems with this answer. For one thing, I just can't believe that "the main occupation of the southern USA was shoe shining." Wouldn't it be something like agriculture?

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com) the first recorded us of the word "shiner" for black eye was in 1904, alright, but the first use of the term for a black person was in 1908. The word usage suggests that "shiner" for black eye came before its use for a black person.

For another guess as to the origin of the word "shiner," see http://www.blurtit.com/q490362.html

<i>The word shiner is used for the phenomenon of the black eye that happens when somebody receives a blow around the eyes. Probably, the reason behind the word being used as such is that shine is a word that describes the phenomenon in which something is very bright and is reflecting light. If something is very bright it certainly attracts attention of people and they start noticing it. The same thing happens with a black eye; when somebody gets a blow, people start noticing his face and the person becomes the object of sympathy or sometimes the object to mock about also. So he gets the shine in a wrong way and that prompted people to call a black eye with the name of shiner also.</i>

[orb360]

Hmmm....

I don't consider blurtit.com to be any more reliable of a source than answerbag.com

And as much as I'd like to believe http://www.etymonline.com 's definition. A 4-year split over 100 years ago seems to be cutting it pretty close to the line and I think either reference could have been mentioned first. Just take a look at leet-speak. When did the terms begin being defined there? Back in pre-BBS days, but you didn't see it in pop culture until the late 90's.... And only recently have any of the words used been considered for inclusion in the dictionary. I wouldn't be suprised if "shiner" was being used as street slang pre-1890.

One thing that gets on my nerves is English teachers who treat the English language as a monolithic element that never changes. Language is fluid and evolves. Pinning down exact reasons and dates is nigh impossible.

Personally, I think either answer is equally acceptable under the circumstances... and certainly making a big muck about it is just nit-picking.

And if you don't like references to racism / slavery? It's part our history and an inseparable part of today's culture because of it. Yes it happened. That's what affirmative action is for. Deal with it. ^_^

[Imogen]

wow orb...that last statement was incredibly insensitive to anyone who's dealt with racism. why should i just "deal with" when someone calls me the n word? or a tar baby? i know it happened, but that doesn't mean we should just say "oh well. affirmative action is fixing everything! yay!" i know the connotations of certain words change. and i know racism happened and STILL HAPPENS and we have to learn about it. but to say people should "deal with it" is so ignorant. you are obviously white, as no person of color would say something like that.

[Fredjikrang]

I know my opinion doesn't matter, but I always thought it was because of the reason that Vorpal Blade mentioned.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

I don't think Orb was trying to be insensitive towards anyone, like I often need to, he could probably have better stated what he had wanted to say.

[Cognoscente]

wow orb...that last statement was incredibly insensitive to anyone who's dealt with racism. why should i just "deal with" when someone calls me the n word? or a tar baby? i know it happened, but that doesn't mean we should just say "oh well. affirmative action is fixing everything! yay!" i know the connotations of certain words change. and i know racism happened and STILL HAPPENS and we have to learn about it. but to say people should "deal with it" is so ignorant. you are obviously white, as no person of color would say something like that.

Whine whine whine. you must be a black person with all that complainin'. I mean, if Orb's great great grandfather didn't take your great great grandfather on a boat ride, you wouldn't be here! So THERE!

[Imogen]

wow orb...that last statement was incredibly insensitive to anyone who's dealt with racism. why should i just "deal with" when someone calls me the n word? or a tar baby? i know it happened, but that doesn't mean we should just say "oh well. affirmative action is fixing everything! yay!" i know the connotations of certain words change. and i know racism happened and STILL HAPPENS and we have to learn about it. but to say people should "deal with it" is so ignorant. you are obviously white, as no person of color would say something like that.

Whine whine whine. you must be a black person with all that complainin'. I mean, if Orb's great great grandfather didn't take your great great grandfather on a boat ride, you wouldn't be here! So THERE!

who said i wanted to be here in the first place?

[orb360]

I call it how I see it.

I've never seen anyone barred from entering Wal-Mart based on skin color... Never seen SAT scores altered... Never seen anyone denied from entry at BYU...

What I have seen is black-only scholarships that I can't apply for, but my taxes pay... Native American clubs that I can't join, yet Caucasian clubs are racist... College positions reserved specifically for minorities...

I'm sorry some people call you names. But words are words. I was mocked mercilessly by other kids when I was younger for my deficiencies. The only difference I see is that I shrug it off while you cry "Poor Me! Somebody DO something about this mean person!!"

The root of the issue is lack of personal responsibility which is causing more and more problems in the USA. If you don't like it... Deck the person, take responsibility, people will stand by you if you take a stand against it because they know you're right and he's wrong.

It's like terrorists on the airlines. We do not need TSA to protect us. Let us take our weapons on the plane... Do you think a terrorist would even THINK of boarding a plane if he knew five people would stand up and "take care of him"* if he tried anything? No...

The government doesn't need to protect me. I can protect myself. If anyone tries to mug me... I'm not going to go easy. They better be prepared to kill me for that 10 bucks because I'll fight until the end.

We don't need a Big Brother to watch over us. We can do that ourselves. We just need to stop being all "poor me" and lazy. Step up and do it.

*edited for "graphic content"

[jooniper]

Oh my, this has gotten out of hand quickly. I agree with orb completely, except for the last line which I'm assuming was meant to be cheeky, as evidenced by the ^_^.

Though I don't agree with most of the racist-geared comments on this particular thread (and they have gone both ways- things like "you are obviously white, as no person of color would say something like that" are just as racist as anything else), I do agree that dwelling on racism gets no one anywhere. Some words have etymologies that come from eras where racism was a problem. Get over it. It's a little different than being called the n word or a tar baby- I don't think anyone here is defending that.

As for the poorly phrased line from the answer:
the main occupation of the southern USA was shoe shining which employed mainly black people

I think (mind you, I *think*) that what the original writer of it might have been trying to say (nd failing miserably at) is most shoe shiners were black, not that most black people were shoe shiners.

[orb360]

And I'm not just picking on you... I'm picking on everyone who cries about their "problems."

I am Mexican. I cannot get into school because my father works 16 hours a day and only makes 10 dollars. People think that I'm untrustworthy.

Deal.

I am Black. There are insults that were created just for me. My people used to be enslaved.

Deal.

I am White. Nothing you ever say in a discussion on racism will ever mean _anything_ simply because you're white... Sorry. And no, you cannot wear your White Pride hat either.

Deal.

I am Mormon. People think my beliefs are weird. They make fun of the things that are sacred to me at school. They killed my ancestors for no reason other than they had different beliefs.

Deal.

I am German. I will forever be marked because my forefathers were responsible for the Holocaust.

Deal.

No one has problems. You have situations. How you choose to deal with your situation defines you. I choose how to deal with mine. You choose how to deal with yours.

And if you don't want to be here... Move out of the country. No one will stop you from moving to Canada, or Mexico, or even Nigeria (Where, I might add... White people get a real short stick...) I'm sure you'll love it wherever you choose to go.

(And if you meant you didn't choose to be born... Well, I'd suggest seeing a counselor since you obviously have larger problems than just dealing with one person out of ten thousand calling you a bad word)

[vorpal blade]

Hmmm....

I don't consider blurtit.com to be any more reliable of a source than answerbag.com

Exactly. That was my point in giving the other guess as to the origin of the word "shiner." I find it amusing when people authoritatively give me the so-called origin of a word. Sometimes one suspects that the preference people have for a particular theory depends largely on their biases.

And as much as I'd like to believe http://www.etymonline.com 's definition. A 4-year split over 100 years ago seems to be cutting it pretty close to the line and I think either reference could have been mentioned first. Just take a look at leet-speak. When did the terms begin being defined there? Back in pre-BBS days, but you didn't see it in pop culture until the late 90's.... And only recently have any of the words used been considered for inclusion in the dictionary. I wouldn't be suprised if "shiner" was being used as street slang pre-1890.

I agree. So we have to be careful when we arbitrarily prefer one theory to another.

One thing that gets on my nerves is English teachers who treat the English language as a monolithic element that never changes. Language is fluid and evolves. Pinning down exact reasons and dates is nigh impossible.

Some English teachers are like that.

Personally, I think either answer is equally acceptable under the circumstances... and certainly making a big muck about it is just nit-picking.

Sorry I didn't make my point clear that either answer is possible, and in my opinion both are ridiculous. Actually, I have a third explanation that I prefer, and it differs from these two. I didn't think I was making a big muck about it. Just a little muck. You should see me when I really get going! And I intend to continue making little mucks.

And if you don't like references to racism / slavery? It's part our history and an inseparable part of today's culture because of it. Yes it happened. That's what affirmative action is for. Deal with it. ^_^

I like references to racism/slavery when they are justified. I really don't like references to racism/slavery when they are used to stifle discussions and shame someone else from expressing his opinions. I didn't bring this up to talk about racism/slavery, merely that in another topic we had been discussing shiny bruises, and Polly Esther borrowed a rather questionable source for an explanation. An explanation that seems absurd to me on the face of it.

However, if my purpose had been to question the racism in the given explanation for the origin of the word "shiner," this is the way I would deal with it. By making a little muck about it. Deal with it. ^_^

[Darth Fedora]

I call it how I see it.

I've never seen anyone barred from entering Wal-Mart based on skin color... Never seen SAT scores altered... Never seen anyone denied from entry at BYU...

What I have seen is black-only scholarships that I can't apply for, but my taxes pay... Native American clubs that I can't join, yet Caucasian clubs are racist... College positions reserved specifically for minorities...

Thankfully, racism seldom happens that blatantly anymore. In this day and age, racism (and sexism) are subtle enough that people who aren't thinking about it might not notice. Racism still happens in the way people are perceived and judged. Too many people, when they don't know others very well, assume that other people may be too stupid, or too lazy, or too emotional to do something because of their race or gender. And you might think that what people think of you doesn't really matter, but guess what? It does. Unfounded judgments based on race affect you getting a job. Again, it's not as obvious as "Well, it's between a Mexican guy and a white guy. Let's hire the one who looks like us." It's more like "They both have good qualifications, but Pedro just seemed less intelligent than Steve." These same judgments affect which promotions and raises you get. They affect who wants to be your friend. They affect who wants to date you.
I think that the two best ways to correct racism and sexism are to
1) Raise awareness. Honestly, a lot of people don't even consider why they think or believe the things they do, but when they're aware of how racism and stereotypes can affect the thought process, maybe they'll think twice about how they treat people.
2) Take repsonsibility for your own life. Maybe I'm naive and optimistic, but I think if you're great enough, you'll get noticed and rewarded no matter what your race or gender is.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

And I am Sam. I am nerdy, make inane comments for the sake of a laugh and am very creepily awkward. My foot is forever inserted into my mouth.

Deal.

[727]

For what it's worth, urbandictionary.com's definition is

(n.) a black eye. Term is of Irish origin where it was a punishment for not keeping machinery shiney delivered from the boot of a British officer.

Juuuuuuust don't look at any of the other definitions.


Anywho, is that racism?

[orb360]

As the french say... Laissez-faire

If you're Apathetic... nothing matters anyway...

[SWKT Parachuter]

Orbsy:
Why, you are absolutely looney tunes! Didn't your momma ever tell you that violence is not the answer? If not, I'll give you a little affirmative action refresher course to try to make up for the deficiencies in your upbringing:

Deck the person, take responsibility, people will stand by you if you take a stand against it because they know you're right and he's wrong.

It is wrong to hit people, even if you think they're being mean. Two wrongs don't make a right.

We do not need TSA to protect us. Let us take our weapons on the plane... Do you think a terrorist would even THINK of boarding a plane if he knew five people would stand up and blow his head off if he tried anything? No...

Vigilante justice and anything like unto "taking justice into my own trigger finger" just ends up getting a lot of people hurt. The more guns there are, the more shootings there will be. The more shootings there are, the more bullets wind up in people. The more bullets in people, the less happiness there is in the world.

If anyone tries to mug me... I'm not going to go easy. They better be prepared to kill me for that 10 bucks because I'll fight until the end.

If someone tries to mug you with a weapon, you should probably just give them the money. I mean, hopefully your life and health are worth more than the contents of your wallet.

I hope that helped, sugarloaf!

XOXO,
SWKT

[Imogen]

For what it's worth, urbandictionary.com's definition is

(n.) a black eye. Term is of Irish origin where it was a punishment for not keeping machinery shiney delivered from the boot of a British officer.

Juuuuuuust don't look at any of the other definitions.


Anywho, is that racism?

actually, yes. the irish were incredibly oppressed by the british not too long ago. here too. people were literally turned away from jobs and the country simply because they were irish.

racism isn't that blatant anymore, but as was said before there is still racism and sexism in this world. it's not so blatant (all the time. i deal with harsh blatant racism everyday.) but the more insidious kind can be more dangerous because it doesn't enable people to talk about the issues and stereotypes that make people judge. and no, i won't "just deal" with people judging me because my skin is black. it's WRONG for people to judge me and call me names and ask me if i'm on welfare just because of my black skin.

[Portia]

As the [F]rench say... Laissez-faire

If you're [a]pathetic... nothing matters anyway...

I was discussing the differences between French fatalism and American idealism last night, and while the former can sometimes be a lot easier, I think it lacks both authenticity and consistency.

I'm not sure slipping into a state of ennui and throwing your hands up in resignation ever solved much of anything. However, this probably presumes that you have some basic understanding of French and American intellectual history, which may not be as interesting to others here as it is to me.

Basically, I'm saying that saying c'est la vie to society's ills is a weak-sauce excuse.

I don't agree with all the implementations of Affirmative Action, for instance, but I still don't think that that somehow makes it okay to stereotype/make fun of people of other races! Honestly. Though certainly not enslaved, many of my ancestors came to the US because of extreme poverty and ethnic prejudices against them. I don't find "drunk/wife-beating/conniving Irish" or "vapidly domestic/cultish/Jell-O-eating Mormon" jokes particularly funny, maybe because it hits so close to home

I think the Board community is homogeneous enough as it is . . . is it really that much to ask to show some respect?

Also, while your initial comment, orb, was probably merely glib, your subsequent remarks have bordered on offensive. The entire point of the 100 Hour Board is to provide a non-threatening context where people can ask personal, informational, or silly questions . . . without fear of hostility or demeaning. Racism is definitely not in line with that, and I still have administrative powers: continued remarks of this sort will certainly merit administrative discussion. I'm not just going to sit back and watch someone spout off on a thread about etymology. Grow up.

[Imogen]

dear portia,

thank you for your level head. it makes things make sense, as always.

always appreciative,
imogen

[Portia]

It's like terrorists on the airlines. We do not need TSA to protect us. Let us take our weapons on the plane... Do you think a terrorist would even THINK of boarding a plane if he knew five people would stand up and blow his head off if he tried anything? No...

The government doesn't need to protect me. I can protect myself. If anyone tries to mug me... I'm not going to go easy. They better be prepared to kill me for that 10 bucks because I'll fight until the end.

Wow. Wow wow wow. In my little Portian land, I thought people who thought this way were fictional: foils for comedians and the like.

I would suggest reading here, for starters, and doing more research about the actual risks/benefits to carrying arms. While helping a lady doing genealogy, I came across the story of a man who was killed by his young sun accidentally shooting him. I think scenarios like that are much more common than your crazy terrorist scenario.

Why wouldn't you want the TSA to protect you? (Consider this a rhetorical question.) Hmm, trained professionals versus somebloodthirsty crazy dude in seat 12A: sounds like a hard choice, there.

The mental image of "five people standing up and blowing his head off" is, quite frankly, disturbing. We have 13-year-olds read this message board! I can't believe this could come out of the 21st-century United States. Weird stuff.

This is all coming from a born-in-Wyoming white girl raised by rather staunch conservatives. My mom worked on a ranch and definitely knows a thing or two about guns, but I think she would be similarly disturbed to go on a plane with my seven-year-old sister with a bunch of vigilantes. Many of my relatives are Bush-voting, Glenn Beck-watching, people-should-get-off-the-dole types, but they don't go around saying "deal with it, minorities" or thinking we should just do away with all government functions. I don't always agree with my relatives' opinions, but they at least try to formulate good reasons for their beliefs.

Between your snide remarks and your violent tendencies, I say that you are making this thread a rather uncomfortable experience. Just sit down and take a deep breath before you hit "submit," okay?