#46899 Shiner

[Portia]

dear portia,

thank you for your level head. it makes things make sense, as always.

always appreciative,
imogen

Of course. :)

[Cognoscente]

In the spirit of racism, here's Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2728001551

Awesome.

[orb360]

Sorry about the graphic descriptions. I edited them out...

I like to take things to the extreme to generate more "interesting" discussion. (by the way... it worked)
--------------------
On TSA Security Restrictions
Obviously, removing all security and just passing out handguns at the terminal is not an answer... But neither is entrusting 100% of of your security to TSA... They can't check everything... and it's been proven that it's not as impossible to sneak things by them as you think ( see http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=67166 ). I had a small 2" Allen wrench confiscated while flying a couple years back. I'm dead sure that that was a SERIOUS security threat... It's ludicrous. TSA does not make you any safer than a deadbolt. If you want nightmares, look up "bump key" on youtube. There is a distinct difference between actual security and the illusion thereof.
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On Gun Control...
Seriously... My 2 brothers, 3 sisters, and I all grew up with guns in the house. Nothing ever happened. I've known how to handle them, clean them, and fire them, and hunted with them since I was 12. My grandmother had her arm shot off by a neighbor, and my great grandfather shot his own hand off (a very amusing story... He was proving that the gun was unloaded...) You just need to follow proper safety as with anything hazardous (aka, cars, cleaners, motorcycles, knives, most things in life...). If you don't like guns, that's fine... Just don't take away my right to own one. Guns are outlawed in Japan and it hasn't made much difference in the crime-rate there.

It is true that outlawing guns, such as Japan has done ( http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/Japa ... ontrol.htm ) does reduce the number of gun-related crimes. However, the number of violent crimes remains the same, they are simply conducted without guns. And, as mentioned at the end of the article... As gun ownership increased throughout the 1940s-1980s violent crime was reduced. But the worst part of gun control is the complete eradication of privacy. The police force in Japan can search your home if they think you have a gun. And they report to no one, so they can use or abuse this power as they like. That would not fly in the USA (yet...). We are giving up more freedoms these days for less in return. Look at FISA, Habeus Corpus, The Patriot Act, etc.
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On Graphic Content...
Skinning and field dressing a deer is really quite disgusting work. And I was doing it at that age. Mabye that's desensitizing, but meat doesn't just magically appear as ground beef in the package at the super market. It's important to get a grip with mortality... Especially if you have guns around. After you've killed something with one you are _well_ aware of the consequences. And you might want to advise the younger kids to skip Ether, that's more graphic than anything I've ever written. It is indeed wise to avoid gratuitous violence, but to pretend it doesn't exist at all is just as bad.
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On Racism...
Yes there are morons out there who still think of minorities as inferior... And no affirmative action doesn't solve anything... And it never will. But it's better than nothing. And those morons are not going to disappear. If you aren't going to ignore it, and you aren't going to do anything about it (and no, physical violence is probably not a good idea)... I don't know how to help you. But I will tell you that I have felt discrimination not so different from yours. It is not a pleasant thing. But I never did let it interfere with anything I wanted to do, nor get worked up over it. People do as they do and all I control is how I act in return. I usually go with ignoring them.
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On Self Defense (and defense of others):
I would have to take this on a case by case basis. And perhaps my opinion will change once I have a wife and children. But at the moment, being single... I think that most criminals are just as nervous as I would be during the encounter. I also would think that most would expect little resistance. I think that immediate decisive action would catch them off guard and give me enough advantage to overpower them or scare them off. But as I said, this would be on a case by case basis depending on judgments about size, strength, and demeanor made instantaneously. I don't have a death wish, but I don't believe in giving up at the first sign of trouble either. Whether this is accurate or not, it is how I feel about the matter at the moment.
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On Humanity Today...
This is something I feel very strongly about. My father always made it a point to help people out. Too often I drive down the highway and see people pulled over by the side of the road... as hundreds of cars, uncaring, drive past. Sad to say, sometimes I also drive past. But I've stopped to help more often than not.

I've experienced it first hand...
I've crashed my motorcycle in the middle of an intersection and watched as car after car drives around me... They don't care if I'm dead, they don't care if I need help... They don't want to be involved. One finally stopped and got out his cellphone... I was completely ok... but after I crashed I stayed still for a few minutes as to make sure my spine wasn't broken... For all intents and purposes people saw the bike go down and me sitting there motionless for 45 seconds. Shocking...
I've been stranded on the side of I-15... Miles from any city... In the middle of the night trying to flag someone down... As semi after semi and the occasional car drive by ignoring me.

But I do know...
If I saw someone being beaten in an alley... And I did not help for fear of death... I would be dead to myself for the rest of my life.
If I were on one of the 9/11 planes... And I did not stand up and fight... I would question whether I could have made a difference for all eternity...
If I drive by someone stranded on the highway on a cold winters night... And I do not stop... I know exactly what they feel.
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Level-headed enough?

[xkcd ***]

Well... Yes, but I do have to give a shout out to China. They are banned from owning a gun as well, however, their crime rate is surprisingly low.

[orb360]

Yes well in China you have no freedom whatsoever...

And if you don't like the way the Chinese government is running the country... *possibly too graphic* see the wikipedia article here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_ ... ts_of_1989

[xkcd ***]

Yes well in China you have no freedom whatsoever...

And if you don't like the way the Chinese government is running the country... *possibly too graphic* see the wikipedia article here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_ ... ts_of_1989

I know. But they are doing better today. Honestly, the country as a whole has come a long way, and right now, it seems like their way of doing it is working for them. There will be a time when the government will have to be overthrown, but I don't think they have anything ready to replace the current system.

[bismark]

i gave up trying to care what orb was saying but i do agree that the TSA is bull stuff. i'm getting on the no fly list for saying this, but can anyone else think of a place that a terrorist could do a great deal of destruction to a large group of people? maybe setting off a bomb in line at a security checkpoint in any major airport? the whole thing is a security theater to make us feel like the government is keeping us safe all while they still have yet to enforce mandatory shielded cockpit doors which is all that would have been needed to stop the terrorists on 9-11... anyway, off my little soapbox, go back to arguing about racism.

[Cognoscente]

totally right about that bismark. Everyone with any even superficial knowledge of the TSA knows it's a disastrous waste of time and a colossal failure of policy.

They make people throw out thousands of prepackaged bottles of liquid in the name of "safety." They made me throw out 20 bucks worth of unopened coke bottles last time I flew. Theft is rampant, passengers are routinely harassed, and there is zero accountability and reform. They've NEVER successfully thwarted a terror attack, but they fail 90% of security tests when the gov't tried to actually get harmful things through to test the system.

It's a catastrophe, to put it charitably.

[Portia]

Well, I don't fly very often . . . but I still feel uncomfortable with vigilante anti-terrorism. Seems counterproductive to me.

Do either of you have any other good alternatives to the TSA, Cognoscente or bismark? The cockpit thing sounds reasonable.

[Unit of Energy]

I don't have a problem with self defense or responsible gun use. I don't have a problem with a calm, reasonable adult carrying a gun on a plane. There is a huge difference between vigilantes and someone who only wants to protect themselves and others.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Even so, the last thing a plane needs is a gun fight between trained killers and responsible adults with a permit. The passengers themselves wont know who is an ordinary citizen and who is a trained killer, because I doubt that they will sit all together nicely. And if sufficient windows or holes are put in the plane, it'll crash anyways due to the loss in pressure.

So maybe the answer is to carry tranquilizer guns or rifles that would put people to sleep instantly? Tasers? Bust out a Jason Borne move and kill someone with a pen?

[Darth Fedora]

I've spent a lot of time shadowing doctors in the ED and OR. I've seen gunshot wounds being taken into the ED and getting cleaned up in surgery, and let me tell you, it's a mess. I won't go into graphic detail, but the amount of trauma a few little pieces of metal can cause is staggering. I don't understand how anyone could willingly buy a gun with the intention of ever using it to hurt someone, ever. I just don't think people really comprehend the amount of pain and damage and misery caused by being shot. And the idea that anyone could see guns being used, even on animals, and understand the devastation they cause, and still want to own and use firearms...that's really just sickening.

Do I think that guns should be banned? No, I don't think that would be an effective law. But do I think that anyone who buys guns for pleasure or "protection" (not because of their job) is either a sicko or an idiot? Oh, absolutely yes.

P.S. I really tried to tone this down to sound less judgmental, but I feel very strongly that violence is Wrong. And I'm not interested in hearing about some extenuating circumstances where you could use guns to protect yourself, because preventing a few robberies will never, ever be worth the lives and happiness lost as a result of using guns when a can of pepper spray would have worked, or the countless accidental shootings there have been, or all the murders committed with a gun when if they had only had a knife instead, the victim could have lived. Listen, I could go on for while, but I think you all get the point.

[Imogen]

i disagree with you about buying a gun for protection, darth. when the crackhead down the street broke into my mother's house through our skylight, you better believe she went and got certified to own a gun because she lived alone in the country. i'd rather some crackhead get shot than my mother.

thankfully she's moved so i don't have to worry about that anymore.

[orb360]

With a name like Darth Fedora I'm surprised you are a pacifist.

I'm with Imogen on this one.

As Master Kan once said... "Avoid, rather than check. Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim. Maim, rather than kill. For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced."

But if you're gonna escalate things to lethal force right off... Don't expect me to start back at the beginning.

[Unit of Energy]

And the idea that anyone could see guns being used, even on animals, and understand the devastation they cause, and still want to own and use firearms...that's really just sickening.

It may surprise you that I agree with you here. I'm not opposed to hunting, but I do find it disturbing and hunting just for fun is wrong. But buying a gun for pleasure does not have to mean buying a gun to hunt. I have spent many wonderful outings with my dad where we went target shooting. And not the creepy human shaped targets either, those disturb me. The reason for this was to teach my siblings and I to respect guns, and the proper usage of them. My dad owns several guns, but I don't even know where he keeps them. I do know that they are stored unloaded and a safe distance from the reach of the youngest kids.

[Darth Fedora]

I guess I could have explained myself a bit better.
By owning a gun for pleasure, I meant using it for hunting or keeping it for a macho display case rather than using it for target practice. But when you're playing with fire(arms) like that, you had better be darn careful never to develop the kind of gun fascination that leads to wanting to shoot living things.
By owning a gun for "protection," I meant having glorious fantasies of saving the day in a mugging or hijacking by shooting someone. Fantasizing about violence is really pretty sick. Even in a situation when actual people are actually threatening you, I still think it's better to treat the root of the problem (where you live/work, where you go at night alone) rather than the symptoms.

[orb360]

When my father and I go hunting... We eat what we kill, use the skins, etc. My dad is big on survival and being self-sufficient. We go on survival campouts for a weekend with nothing but our clothes and a knife... stuff like that. We raise our own cows, just what we need.. and they live a good life. Only 6 of them on 30 acres. Plenty of grazing space.

I consider hunting and raising our own meat far more humane than stuffing hundreds of animals in bins for there entire lives, force feeding them for a few years to make them fat, and mass slaughtering them.

If you buy your beef and other meat from the store... fast food chains... etc... The I consider you sicker than I am for supporting an industry that mistreats animals in such a fashion.

[Darth Fedora]

I was wondering if anyone would point that out about the meat industry. Fortunately, I've been a strict vegetarian for four years and all of my adult life! No hypocrisy here, homie.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

I was wondering if anyone would point that out about the meat industry. Fortunately, I've been a strict vegetarian for four years and all of my adult life! No hypocrisy here, homie.

Only this hypocrisy is quite delicious.

Although I do agree that what is going on is mistreatment and better standards of containment would be better.

[orb360]

I've been a strict vegetarian for four years and all of my adult life!

This phrasing reminds me of commercials...

"Save up to 20%.... or MORE!"