#47600 Proposition 8

[NerdGirl]

And a PS: just for those of you who still believe that this prop is all about the use of a word, it's not. There's an adgenda. Just look at this website made by gay people in Canada, where Gay marriage is legalized.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.asp ... PLATE_ID=1

This site has a list of things that homosexuals in Canada want now that they have use of the word. Just a word?

PS: There are a few inappropriate cartoons, just as a heads up

Some of those things are a bit less scandalous than they would appear to an American. The thing about Catholic schools, for example - the schools they are talking about are not private schools; they are publicly-funded Catholic schools that are a leftover relic from the days when public schools in Canada were split into Protestant and Catholic schools. There are actually quite a few Canadians who think we should get rid of them.

And I really just think there are bigger threats to the family than gay marriage. I have a lot of gay friends, and I consider what they do to be in the same category as my heterosexual friends who live together before they're married - it's something I wouldn't do because of my religious beliefs, but they are not hurting me and it doesn't make them bad people. They just believe differently than I do and that's okay. I really think that the important issue here is just us needing to say that we believe marriage is a certain thing and that it's sacred. That doesn't mean that same-sex couples shouldn't have the same rights we do. And the Church has nothing to be afraid of. If we believe that this is God's church (which I do, although I certainly don't want to alienate anyone on here who isn't LDS by saying that), then we should just trust that He will take care of it no matter what happens. I'm not saying that there isn't an agenda here other than the definition of a word; I'm just saying that we don't need to be afraid. Fear is unproductive and all we need to do is share our beliefs, love others, and trust in God. I really wish that we could take the strength, energy, and manpower that have gone into fighting gay marriage and use it to fight poverty or help kids in foster care or help orphans in poor countries. Those things definitely undermine the family.

@Imogen - Please don't leave! I know this is only like my third post on here, but I read this board a lot and I always appreciate your comments. People like you help me feel like I'm not alone in my opinions.

[Werf_Must]

Ahh, that clarification on the schools make a lot more sense, ty nerdgirl


And Imogen, I sure hope you do come back. This is discussion, a conversation where we talk about our unique opinions, and I have always counted on you to bring in an aspect I didn't think of in discussions. You seem to have a background that is very different than my own, and I have always appreciated that because it adds to our forum.

[361]

Bye Imogen

[vorpal blade]

Thank you, Eponine, for your comments.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many churches teach that homosexual behavior is a great sin? That it is seriously evil? An abomination in the sight of the Lord? Don't we believe, as members of the LDS church, that sexual immorality is next to murder, so homosexual sexual acts are also next to murder? Of course, these beliefs should not be used by anyone to condone acts of violence or any unkind behavior toward the sinner. We love the sinner, but hate the sin. Shouldn't this be what we are teaching our children, and what we wish everyone would believe? Shouldn't we be unapologetic in teaching what is true and how God sees it? Don't we as LDS agree with that?

We could teach our beliefs to the children in public schools, and put the burden on parents who disagree with us to teach their children their own values. But we have more respect for the beliefs of others than that.

We all know that not everyone agrees with our point of view. In fact, some people take the opposite point of view and believe that homosexual relationships are wonderful. Some of these people think we are intolerant because of our beliefs; and they think we are homophobic, mean-spirited, intolerant, discriminatory, bigoted, narrow-minded, and show a lack of respect for diversity. They think our beliefs constitute hate speech (which is not protected by the First Amendment), and voicing our beliefs should be made illegal, designating homosexuals as a protected class with more rights than the majority. And that is what they would like to see taught in our public schools, with the burden on parents who disagree with them to try to overcome this indoctrination in the schools.

So, what should be taught in our public schools? The law says that you have to teach the children about families as early as kindergarten, and if Prop 8 passes what we are going to see taught is a belief which is approximately opposite to our own. As evidenced by some of the comments here, some won't even realize that what is taught is the opposite view, but will think it is value neutral.

If you have a well-liked teacher, who is a practicing lesbian, and the school sponsors a trip to her wedding with another lesbian, what do you think the children are going to learn? They will see a happy, loving couple. They will see a joyous ceremony. They will see adults applauding this behavior. Remember, we are talking about impressible little children ages 5 and 6. How are you going to counter this kind of indoctrination and brain washing? How are you going to tell your little children that their teacher is making commitments and promises to continue an evil and abominable practice, and that what she is doing is very displeasing to God? They won't understand that, but they are going to be taught that you are intolerant and in the wrong. It will be very hard to get people to listen to the gospel with an open mind if they are trained up to believe that you are evil.

It is one thing to tell students that lynching exists. It is another thing to have a member of the KKK teach your children and then take them to a KKK rally, where they can see a lot of excited people glorifying and applauding someone for lynching innocent, hapless victims.

[jooniper]

Some of these people think we are intolerant because of our beliefs; and they think we are homophobic, mean-spirited, intolerant, discriminatory, bigoted, narrow-minded, and show a lack of respect for diversity.

I'd say in a lot of cases, they'd be right to think so. We can be all of those things if we're not careful and don't put the emphasis on God's love for all his children, the atonement, and the fact we are all sinners working towards an eternal goal, whether we know it or not. We may be closer to the goal than others, but that doesn't give us the right to judge others.

So, what should be taught in our public schools? The law says that you have to teach the children about families as early as kindergarten, and if Prop 8 passes what we are going to see taught is a belief which is approximately opposite to our own.

Could you give me more information on the law that says school have to teach about families? I'm not being snarky, I honestly want to know about it since it keeps being referenced. I'd have a lot more issue with the school deciding to poke it's nose where it doesn't belong than I do with them exposing my kids to the fact that some people believe differently than us.

If you have a well-liked teacher, who is a practicing lesbian, and the school sponsors a trip to her wedding with another lesbian, what do you think the children are going to learn? They will see a happy, loving couple. They will see a joyous ceremony. They will see adults applauding this behavior. Remember, we are talking about impressible little children ages 5 and 6.

My kids would be seeing the truth: there are likable people who are gay. It's possible for them to genuinely love each other. Much of the world approves of this. None of the above statements are false. I can hide them from these true statements, or I can use it as an opportunity to teach my children from a young age that there are beliefs different than our own, and that people that believe differently than us aren't bad people. They're just missing out on the happiness we find from the gospel.

How are you going to counter this kind of indoctrination and brain washing?... It will be very hard to get people to listen to the gospel with an open mind if they are trained up to believe that you are evil.

Funny... non mormons could make these exact same arguments about the methods we use in our church to teach children.

Our kids are going to be exposed to the fact not everyone believes the same as us. It's unavoidable. As a kid growing up, I saw non-married couples living together. I saw young single moms who were obviously never married. I saw people smoke, drink, where immodest clothes... Does it mean I emulated those behaviors? No. My parents taught me better.
Rather than pretend it's not true, we should use it as an opportunity to teach our kids. I'll tell you exactly how it could go:

Me: Daniel (that's my son's name), what did you learn at school today?
Daniel: We saw my favorite teacher marry another lady
Me: How do you feel about it?
Daniel: I'm confused- they seemed happy and it seemed like they love each other but every one is telling me they're different from us and we're wrong
Me: It's true, they probably were happy. Isn't it sad that they can only be happy for now, but when they die they won't get to be together anymore? Is it sad they can't have babies together because there's no daddy?
Daniel: Yeah, that is sad.
Me: Heavenly Father wants all his children to be happy forever, so it makes him sad to see his children make choices that will only make them happy for right now, but make them sad later on. Does sinning sometimes make us happy for a short period? How about when you stole my candy the other day- did it taste good?
Daniel: Yeah, it was yummy.
Me: But when I found out about it and you realized you had made me sad, and you had to apologize sit on the stairs, how did that make you feel?
Daniel: I was sad.
Me: Sometimes doing stuff Heavenly Father doesn't want us to do can make us happy for a little while, even if we don't know what we're doing is wrong. (*grabs picture of me and my husband on our wedding day at the temple*) Do mommy and daddy look happy here?
Daniel: yeah
Me: We're happy in the picture because we were just sealed for time and all eternity. We know we are following God's plan, and that someday we could have a family together! Adn after we die, we can all stay together as a family. How long will that make us happy, do you think?
Daniel: Forever!
Me: That's right! Now, not everyone knows about Heavenly Father's plan for us. What should we do to help them understand? Should we make them feel stupid because they ddon't know the gospel yet?
Daniel: No
Me: What would Jesus do? Would he make them feel loved? Would he set a good example?
Daniel: Yeah
Me: So let's do those things and remember not everyone believes the same as us. All we have control over are the choices we make based on what we know about God's plan for us.

This would be in addition to other lessons on how not everyone follows the commandments that we do. All a kid needs to see is someone smoking to see that. But I hope to teach my children not to judge, to see the good in everybody, to set a good example, and how to be a missionary.

Heck, I'll let my children watch Ocean's 11, which is all about glorifying stealing, and no Mormon would think twice about that. They watch Harry Potter, where people kill each other, and no one really worries about that. They'll have heros in the music industry, in the movie industry, in fiction, in real life, who all practice things contrary to our beliefs.
But Ellen Degeneres? Keep her away from my kids!!!

Lastly, I'm really sad that you'd choose to equate being a member of the KKK to being gay. KKK rally= hate-fueled and violent. Gay marriage= misguided, but still based on love, albeit worldy love. It's not like they took the kids to a homosexual orgy where they saw the sin itself taking place.
Not all sins are equal. Remember, we are all sinners, and those not in the church do not have the knowledge that we have that there is a higher plan.

[Eponine]

I believe that there will be a time when we will all have to vote on this, not just those of us in CA. I'm curious to know what you guys would vote for.

[361]

I had a roommate up at BYUI.

He was gay...

Then one day my other roommate woke up with his hand down his sheets...

Yeah... Not cool...

---------------

Edit....

I would vote for it 'cause guys and guys can't co-populate... neither can girls and girls...

So yeah... biology rocks!

[jooniper]

I would vote for it. If I lived in CA, I would for it. Not only because the prophet said so but because despite all I've said, I do want to see marriage defined as between a man and a women.

HOWEVER, I would not use it as an excuse to spread judgment, false or sensationalist propaganda, or do anything that sends the message that homosexuals are evil sinners that want to undermine all that is good in the world. They are sinners, like us and everyone else. And they should have the right to practice as they believe. If they want to commit to monogamous, committed relationships, more power to them. Just don't redefine the word marriage to make it happen.

If I were campaigning for prop8, I would use only the following arguments (taken in part from http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?t ... n_8_(2008) ):
* Proposition 8 is about preserving marriage; it’s not an attack on the gay lifestyle. Proposition 8 doesn’t take away any rights or benefits of gay or lesbian domestic partnerships.
* It leaves the ability to make important decisions like this in the hands of the people and the law makers, NOT in the hands of the judicial branch.

[bismark]

i would vote for the privatization of marriage. marriage is instituted of God, not of man. therefore i would vote for all marriage-like arrangements to be treated as civil unions in the eyes of the government. this is the best solution to this mess in my opinion. it stops us from trying to legislate based on religious grounds and poor understanding of judicial review (see marbury vs madison) while allowing us to keep our beliefs untouched.

[vorpal blade]

Could you give me more information on the law that says school have to teach about families? I'm not being snarky, I honestly want to know about it since it keeps being referenced. I'd have a lot more issue with the school deciding to poke it's nose where it doesn't belong than I do with them exposing my kids to the fact that some people believe differently than us.

No problem. See California Education Code 51890. Here is a link. http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displayco ... 1890-51891

Like you, I also have an issue with the school interfering in other areas that they should stay out of.

It isn't just a matter of exposing my kids to the fact that some people believe differently than us. The problem is that the teaching is designed to undermine what parents like you and I are teaching them. It is teaching designed to persuade them that there is nothing wrong with homosexual relationships. They will be taught that there is no difference between a same-sex marriage and a traditional marriage. The teaching is designed to shape attitudes, more than inform them of different opinions.

Rather than pretend it's not true, we should use it as an opportunity to teach our kids. I'll tell you exactly how it could go:

I believe if that is the way you would handle it you are setting up Daniel to lose his testimony of the Church. The only thing you point out to Daniel that is wrong with his teacher's behavior is that the teacher wasn't getting married in the temple, so they won't be together after they die. They can be happy now, but they will be sad later solely because it wasn't a temple marriage. That may not have been the message you wanted to convey, but that was the message I got out of it.

What will Daniel think later when he hears that homosexual behavior is sinful? He'll think back to his wonderful teacher, and what he'll remember is how you told him that she wasn't doing anything wrong, except she didn't get married in the temple. He'll think the person who told him it was sinful is a bad person for making such a judgment of another person.

And then, down the road, he'll find out that the Church does not permit same-sex couples to marry in the temple. He'll be outraged. He'll think it is discriminatory, bigoted, mean-spirited, prejudiced, and unfair. He'll refuse to believe the Church can be true if it practices such "injustice."

Lastly, I'm really sad that you'd choose to equate being a member of the KKK to being gay. KKK rally= hate-fueled and violent. Gay marriage= misguided, but still based on love, albeit worldy love. It's not like they took the kids to a homosexual orgy where they saw the sin itself taking place.
Not all sins are equal. Remember, we are all sinners, and those not in the church do not have the knowledge that we have that there is a higher plan.

Why do you want to put a happy face on homosexual unions? Sure, there is the pretty side; the lovely couple, sharing their love, and making commitments to love and care for each other. But there is another side to the issue, and that is just as much the truth. Homosexual behavior is abominable; it is just a step away from the ugly sin of murder. In that regard it is close to KKK behavior. It is not judging people to tell the truth that their homosexual behavior is a very serious sin.

Once again, children need to learn the truth, but they don't need the schools cleverly shaping their impressionable minds to believe that what is evil is good.

[Cognoscente]

Vorpal, you are a small, hurtful man and I hope you learn compassion soon. And pull your head out of your ass.

If you took the time to read any of a number of talks given by general authorities about the subject you would see an overwhelming outreach. Compassion. Understanding. Love. Patience. And an understanding of the purifying power of the Atonement in everyone's lives.

Same Gender Attraction by Dallin H. Oaks.

Helping Those Who Struggle with Same-Gender Attraction by Jeffrey R. Holland

All men, everywhere, need to repent. That is a fact of life and the reason we NEED the gospel and the Atonement in our lives. What we don't need is spiteful, prideful, ignorant and malicious rhetoric from members of the Church to whom is given the commandment "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

With all my love, friend... quit being a jackass.

A quote from Hugh Nibley:
“A favorite trick [of Satan] is to put the whole blame on sex. Sex can be a pernicious appetite, but it runs a poor second to the other. For example: We are wont to think of Sodom as the original sexpot, but according to all accounts ‘this was the iniquity of they sister Sodom’: that great wealth made her people cruel and self-righteous. The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism. Longhairs, beards, necklaces, LSD and rock, Big Sur and Woodstock come and go, but Babylon is always there: rich, respectable, immovable, with its granite walls and steel vaults, its bronze gates, its onyx trimmings and marble floors (all borrowed from ancient temples, for these are our modern temples) and its bullet-proof glass–the awesome symbols of total security. Keeping her orgies decently private, she presents a front of unalterable propriety to all…. ‘When I see this people grow and spread and prosper,’ said Brigham Young, ‘I feel there is more danger than when they are in poverty. Being driven from city to city…is nothing compared to the danger of becoming rich and being hailed by outsiders as a first-class community.’” (”What is Zion? A Distant View,” Approaching Zion, 54-55)

[361]

Not all sins are equal.

I would beg to differ... With one exception (the unforgivable sin of denying Christ and becoming a Son of Perdition)

Any single sin of any degree, unrepented for, will keep you out of God's presence.

And (aside from the exception mentioned above) you can repent for any sin you may have committed (although sometimes the process is more complex and arduous)

-------------

And Cog... that has to be the first time I've seen profanity on the mb... LOL wow...

Cheat Commandos... Rock, Rock On!!

[vorpal blade]

Cognoscente, I've read those talks and many others like them. They are great talks, and I agree wholeheartedly with them. Certainly we should show compassion, understanding, love, and patience to all sinners. I certainly believe in the purifying power of the atonement. Perhaps I should have made that more clear in my previous comments. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so now.

I do not believe that I have said anything to the contrary. I've just been emphazing the fact that homosexual behavior is a very serious sin, and we should not allow the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions.

[jooniper]

Drat, I spent some time writing a great point-by-point response, but by then my cookie had expired and it had signed me out so when I hit submit I lost it all. Drat.

Cog, you make me happy.

Vorpal, if that were the only discussion I ever had with my son on the gospel, you're right, I'd be setting him up for failure. Of course it wouldn't be though. That was just an example of how we can keep control of what our children are taught and not allow the schools to "indoctrinate and brainwash" our children. And how exposure to gay marriages, like exposure to any other sin, does not necessarily mean are kids will be torn away from gospel teachings.
I will teach my children, when it is appropriate, the serious nature of sexual sins. 5 or 6 years old is not the time for that.
I will also teach them that many homosexuals are good people with many Christ-like qualities. I'll teach them that LDS gays must struggle with one of the hardest and most miserable battles I can think of. Most importantly, my child will know that we are blessed with the knowledge of God's plan of happiness, and that because we have that privilege, we have a higher law to follow. Many out there don't have that knowledge and sin in ignorance. They are still loved children of heavenly father. We can't control their actions, sensationalizing their sin and ostracizing them does nothing, and the most we can do is control our own actions, stand steadfast in the gospel, be compassionate, set a good example, and hope that through our actions we can help homosexuals and those that support them know that God loves them and there is a higher plan.

I could go on for hours about how foolish and harsh it is to equate homosexuality to the KKK is, AND how it is counterproductive to the anti-gay argument and makes us sound bigoted, illogical, and out-of-touch, but I don't think it will help.

[jooniper]

Not all sins are equal.

I would beg to differ... With one exception (the unforgivable sin of denying Christ and becoming a Son of Perdition)

Any single sin of any degree, unrepented for, will keep you out of God's presence.

And (aside from the exception mentioned above) you can repent for any sin you may have committed (although sometimes the process is more complex and arduous)

-------------

And Cog... that has to be the first time I've seen profanity on the mb... LOL wow...

Cheat Commandos... Rock, Rock On!!

In that case, we are all as bad as members of the KKK at a lynch mob. It's true all sins are bad and will keep us out of God's presence, but some are easier to recover from and say different things about the state of our hearts and ability to repent.

[vorpal blade]

Drat, I spent some time writing a great point-by-point response, but by then my cookie had expired and it had signed me out so when I hit submit I lost it all. Drat.

I know how that is. Very frustrating.

Cog, you make me happy.

Er, exactly what was it that Cog said that made you happy? Personal insults? Name calling? Your lack of such tactics makes me happy.

Vorpal, if that were the only discussion I ever had with my son on the gospel, you're right, I'd be setting him up for failure. Of course it wouldn't be though. That was just an example of how we can keep control of what our children are taught and not allow the schools to "indoctrinate and brainwash" our children. And how exposure to gay marriages, like exposure to any other sin, does not necessarily mean are kids will be torn away from gospel teachings.
I will teach my children, when it is appropriate, the serious nature of sexual sins. 5 or 6 years old is not the time for that.
I will also teach them that many homosexuals are good people with many Christ-like qualities. I'll teach them that LDS gays must struggle with one of the hardest and most miserable battles I can think of. Most importantly, my child will know that we are blessed with the knowledge of God's plan of happiness, and that because we have that privilege, we have a higher law to follow. Many out there don't have that knowledge and sin in ignorance. They are still loved children of heavenly father. We can't control their actions, sensationalizing their sin and ostracizing them does nothing, and the most we can do is control our own actions, stand steadfast in the gospel, be compassionate, set a good example, and hope that through our actions we can help homosexuals and those that support them know that God loves them and there is a higher plan.

I mostly agree with you here. My point was that indoctrination will come at your child before he is really old enough to understand the arguments against it. By the time he is only enough to talk to about the serious nature of sexual sins, you may well find that his mind has been fixed into believing that there is nothing wrong with it. With your child you would have a chance to bring him around. For many other children, who do not have involved parents like you, it will be much harder to counter the indoctrination in later life.

I could go on for hours about how foolish and harsh it is to equate homosexuality to the KKK is, AND how it is counterproductive to the anti-gay argument and makes us sound bigoted, illogical, and out-of-touch, but I don't think it will help.

Homosexuals have our sympathy, and it is easy to say, "Why not let them call their unions marriage, if it makes them happy." The KKK does not have our sympathy, so it seems harsh to compare the evil of lynching with the evil of homosexual behavior. My intent was to make the point that we should have compassion for the sinner, but realize the intense evil of homosexual behavior. However, I don't need the comparison to the KKK. If it makes you happy, consider that comment removed from my post.

[vorpal blade]

In that case, we are all as bad as members of the KKK at a lynch mob. It's true all sins are bad and will keep us out of God's presence, but some are easier to recover from and say different things about the state of our hearts and ability to repent.

Well said, jooniper.

[Werf_Must]

http://shop.cafepress.com/design/15416039

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/lists/15OwenMorris.html


Those type things help me keep perspective....

[361]

Not all sins are equal.

I would beg to differ... With one exception (the unforgivable sin of denying Christ and becoming a Son of Perdition)

Any single sin of any degree, unrepented for, will keep you out of God's presence.

And (aside from the exception mentioned above) you can repent for any sin you may have committed (although sometimes the process is more complex and arduous)

-------------

And Cog... that has to be the first time I've seen profanity on the mb... LOL wow...

Cheat Commandos... Rock, Rock On!!

In that case, we are all as bad as members of the KKK at a lynch mob. It's true all sins are bad and will keep us out of God's presence, but some are easier to recover from and say different things about the state of our hearts and ability to repent.

Lets bring quantum theory into this...

Schroedinger's sins are all simultaneously equal and unequal until they are compared at which point you find out if they really are equal or not...

Since we cannot judge severity of a sin on an empirical scale....

I think it's safe to assume that all sins are simultaneously both equal and unequal until Judgement Day.

See?? Quantum Theory makes everybody happy!

[Eponine]

VB, thanks for your comments. Choosing to live a homosexual life is a sin. That has been stated by prophets and is therefore a fact. I understand the plea for compassion. Disapprove of the sin, love the sinner, right? I have had many friends (and I think all of us who attended a public high school have) who were extremely misguided in most of their decisions. Who of us didn't know a person who slept around? Maybe less common are those of us who were in close contact with someone who chose to have an unnecessary abortion (a pretty serious sin, if you read the ensign this month). These people need love, I know. But they don't need us to condone their actions. And loving them doesn't mean voting to allow girls aged 14 to have an abortion without parental consent. Wouldn't this also be an attack on the eternal family? It's easy to make up solutions to problems when the problems are still hypothetical, but when you're forced to vote on something, you have to make a (righteous) judgement.

I still remember the day when I looked into my friends eyes and truly understood that she was a child of God. About a week later she told me that she was bisexual. I still know that she is a child of God, and I still love her as such, but I do not support her behavior. I am making judgements here. I am saying that homosexuality is a serious sin. That is my judgement (which is upheld by God, through the living prophets, the scriptures, etc.). But just because I am making that judgement doesn't mean that I think every person struggling with homosexuality is going to hell.

This is just the point that I (and vb, I believe) are trying to make. It is a sin, and saying that we love these people (which we do, and should) doesn't change the fact that it's still a sin. Loving a prideful person doesn't mean that pride isn't a sin. Loving a drug user doesn't mean we should enable him.

PS: as an aside (which I originally had in the main body of my comment, but which did not give the impression I wanted to give), all of the talks that I have read about homosexuality talk about helping people who are *struggling* with it. This statement implies that these people are fighting the sin, not living it. Which means that it is a sin that they must fight and struggle with. We all have sins that we haveto fight and struggle with. But we are looked down on just as much if we give into these sins, which is what a lot of these people have done. A person can be struggling with an addiction to porn, or they can be addicted to porn. In the same way, a person can be struggling with homosexuality, or they can be a homosexual. One is a challenge, the other is an adoption into our natures. I think that the second person has a much harder heart than the first. Maybe they don't even know that what they are doing is wrong, but they need to know it. I know that just knowing it won't change a person's heart, but the fact that it is a sin must eventually be known.