#49161 - Men who shave their legs

[vorpal blade]

wow vorpal, you LOVE social constructions of gender, don't you? girls are NOT generally "quiter" or "prissier." Since you were never a young girl, let me tell you, girls love being loud and getting messy and punching people as much as little boys, but we're usually yelled out of it by the time we enter school (i hadn't been, but that's another ball of wax. let's just say no stupid boys messed with me after getting a punch in the face). boys are usually encouraged in that behavior by their parents. it's not making boys "girlie" to ask them to stay in their seats and do their work. do you know how hard it is to keep a classroom of 20-25 kindergarten aged kids focused on a task when you let "boys be boys"? IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!! in order for education to happen for EVERYONE, you have to keep the kids focused. we can't play all day. we have to work. at some point you're expected to teach them the write their names too. ALL STUDENTS have to learn how to behave in a classroom, and if that makes them "girlie" than i say "AMEN!!!"

and as foreman has pointed out, there are a lot of men who naturally don't grow a lot of hair on their bodies. i think that's very sexy. most of the men i've been attracted to don't have chest hair at all, but they are still manly and sexy. i think massive amounts of body hair shows a disgusting lack of grooming. at least trim! if liking men without body hair means i like "girlie" men than i say "oh well...they've all been amazing people and treated me well."

how much body hair you have doesn't make you a man. your ACTIONS make you a man.

Well, Imogen, considering your age, this is about what I expected from you.

I agree with you that boys will be boys. And boys do need to learn to sit still in their chairs and pay attention to the teacher. And I agree with you that how much body hair you have doesn't make you a man. I agree that it it is your actions that make a difference in whether you are a true man or not. However, there are are certain body features that can make you look like a man, or look like a woman. Wouldn't you agree to that? Mostly we are talking about looks, but I did broaden it to include teachers who try to feminize boys in social behavior.

I've raised three boys and four girls. From newborn to adult. I believe I know something about little girls. Last Thursday I helped two other men in a nursery for preschool age kids. There were nine little girls and three boys. They had this nursery during the time of the Relief Society program. Little girls haven't changed at all since my girls were little.

[vorpal blade]

It cannot be denied that when a boy progresses into manhood there are usually certain physical changes that occur in his body as the result of testosterone levels, I believe. One of the effects of that is usually a deeper voice and more body hair. I do not say that the amount of body hair you have, or the deepness of your voice is a measure of your manliness. But if he has it, I have to wonder why a man would wish to remove those outward evidences of his manliness.

You sound like my dad, except that he thinks it's dumb for any one to shave their legs, male or female. Women have hormonal changes that cause body hair to grow as well. If that is why men shouldn't shave, the neither should women.

Now personally it depends on the guy and how much hair. I don't mind hairy legs, but when your leg hair is really long you should do something about it, at least in my opinion. But hairy legs bother me much less than excessively hairy arms. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time being in the same room as someone whose arm hair is three inches long.

Women do a lot of things that they believe will enhance their femininity. If a woman doesn't wish to shave it's okay with me. You don't have to get breast implants, either.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you have these feelings? Having a hard time being in the same room as someone whose arm hair is three inches long sounds to me like you have a phobia, or personality disorder.

[Imogen]

vorpal,
no i do not agree there are things that make you look like a man or a woman. if you mean secondary sex characteristics like breasts or pubic hair, then sure. but how much hair a man has on his legs or his chest, no no no. a man can look manly with or without leg hair or chest hair. a woman can look like a woman without breasts and shaved legs.

and what, pray tell, is "feminine" social behavior? being quiet? doing your work? showing respect? because i expect that of all my students, and i wouldn't say that's "feminine." you seem very wrapped up in the idea of "manliness" and "femininity" when those expectations are COMPLETELY socially constructed. boys used to wear dresses, did you know that? that was a normal societal thing. or men wearing tunics and tights, which is now considered "girlie." the idea of what constitutes manly or feminine behavior is made up by society, it's not set in stone.

and i was saying the attitude of "boys will be boys" is a negative attitude. it's detrimental to children. i don't accept that as an excuse for rowdy, poor behavior.

and i don't think this has anything to do with my age. my age is totally irrelevant to this conversation. just because i'm younger than you doesn't mean my ideas are less valid.

[vorpal blade]

vorpal,
no i do not agree there are things that make you look like a man or a woman. if you mean secondary sex characteristics like breasts or pubic hair, then sure. but how much hair a man has on his legs or his chest, no no no. a man can look manly with or without leg hair or chest hair. a woman can look like a woman without breasts and shaved legs.

and what, pray tell, is "feminine" social behavior? being quiet? doing your work? showing respect? because i expect that of all my students, and i wouldn't say that's "feminine." you seem very wrapped up in the idea of "manliness" and "femininity" when those expectations are COMPLETELY socially constructed. boys used to wear dresses, did you know that? that was a normal societal thing. or men wearing tunics and tights, which is now considered "girlie." the idea of what constitutes manly or feminine behavior is made up by society, it's not set in stone.

and i was saying the attitude of "boys will be boys" is a negative attitude. it's detrimental to children. i don't accept that as an excuse for rowdy, poor behavior.

and i don't think this has anything to do with my age. my age is totally irrelevant to this conversation. just because i'm younger than you doesn't mean my ideas are less valid.

I specifically said “that how much body hair you have doesn't make you a man,” so yes you agree with me. I’m sure you can tell the difference between a man and a woman. The fact that you say “a man can look manly” shows that you do believe that some things look manly and other things do not. Exactly what is it that makes a man look manly, with or without leg hair or chest hair, you do not say. But it must be something for you. For me, hairy legs looks manly, though he might look manly even without the hair. There is more than one manly trait. But that doesn’t change the fact that hairy legs look manly. To me, anyway.

I agree that our culture has a lot to do with our perceptions of manliness and femininity. It goes a lot deeper than the clothes we wear. That is what I mean when I say that what you say is what I expect of someone your age. Our culture is rapidly changing, and you and I come from different cultures. That doesn’t mean mine is better or worse than yours, only different. I like this quote:

What an insidious thing is this culture amidst which we live. It permeates our environment, and we think we are being reasonable and logical when, all too often, we have been molded by the ethos, what the Germans call the zeitgeist, or the culture of our place and time.
Because my wife and I have had the opportunity to live in 10 different countries, we have seen the effect of the ethos on behavior. Customs which are perfectly acceptable in one culture are viewed as unacceptable in another; language which is polite in some places is viewed as abhorrent in others. People in every culture move within a cocoon of self-satisfied self-deception, fully convinced that the way they see things is the way things really are.
Our culture tends to determine what foods we like, how we dress, what constitutes polite behavior, what sports we should follow, what our taste in music should be, the importance of education, and our attitudes toward honesty. It also influences men as to the importance of recreation or religion, influences women about the priority of career or childbearing, and has a powerful effect on how we approach procreation and moral issues. All too often, we are like puppets on a string, as our culture determines what is “cool.”
There is, of course, a zeitgeist to which we should pay attention, and that is the ethos of the Lord, the culture of the people of God. As Peter states it, “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light” (1 Pet. 2:9). http://tinyurl.com/3gruv6 *

Here’s something I pulled off the Internet a little while ago which illustrates something about what I mean when I talk about feminization of males in school:

I think the feminization starts in school, where now boys are taught that they must behave like girls. Everyone loves girls in grade school because they generally don’t talk back when young, they do their assignments, they enjoy working together, they avoid conflict, etc. Boys like to work independently, need reasons for what they are learning, tend to push the envelope, don’t require as much conformity, etc. Which is better? Neither. They are merely different. But forcing boys to be less rambunctious, more conforming, yes—more like girls, is not a good thing. The world was built on the difference between girls and boys as a reality; they grow into vastly different people when they become women and men. As Conn Iggulden cleverly said “teaching them as though they are girls who don't wash as much leads to their failure in school, causing trouble all the way. Boys don't like group work. They do better on exams than they do in coursework, and they don't like class discussion. In history lessons, they prefer stories of Rome and of courage to projects on the suffragettes.”
They don’t learn the benefits of self-discipline and determination when they are forced to “go along to get along.” Acting like girls, they don’t learn things that only come from by painful experience such as falling out of trees or catching their hair on fire; making mistakes in other words. When they become men, they lack the self-reliance and confidence that make good leaders, providers, and even husbands. Nor can they handle one of the most important requirements of the modern age, competition; winning and losing can only be learned through experience. “The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat” is a life lesson; granted boys may grow to be men without being jocks, but prohibiting and discouraging competition is absurd. Getting along in a group environment when all people are treated equally despite obvious differences in ability is a recipe for mediocrity and groupthink, which is evident throughout our country now. Masculine notions such as duty, honor, courage and competence need to be learned and practiced; they do not happen to appear overnight when boys chronologically turn into men. I recognize liberals place no value on duty and honor, but I believe it is essential to the growth of even evolved people.
Apparently it is the boys’ inherent aggressive and rationalist nature, which is now defined by modern educators as “a behavioral disorder,” that gets so many of them in trouble in the feminized schools. Their basic problem is they don’t want to be girls; even at an early age the boys understand that there are differences between boys and girls but this difference is minimized by the education process. While I happen to like girls for what they are, precious little female humans, they are different from boys and boys should not be made to act like little girls. I find it interesting that most modern educators are liberals.
It may be that the problem starts early in the schools due to the majority of grade school teachers being women. They may subconsciously inculcate the young boys of the natural superiority of behaving like girls. While this may sound like gibberish, there is something definitely wrong to cause a 92% incarceration rate, assuming there is a basic equality of the sexes.
In no way am I trying to denigrate women in this post and this is not a sexist rant. Women can be equal or superior to males in virtually any endeavor they attempt that does not take physical strength; but they are different than males. Conversely, some women may be inferior to some males. Golda Meir and Margaret Thatcher proved beyond any shadow of doubt that women can be exceptional leaders; I have the greatest respect for them. However, boys should grow to be men; not feminized versions of women. They should be encouraged when they make the mistakes and guided rather than punished for being boys. The continued feminization of America needs to stop. http://noise.typepad.com/peoples_politi ... on-of.html

*tinyurl'd by Portia because scrolling back and forth drives her nuts. LDS.org, the URLs you spit out are shaking my testimony.

[Foreman]

It cannot be denied that when a boy progresses into manhood there are usually certain physical changes that occur in his body as the result of testosterone levels, I believe. One of the effects of that is usually a deeper voice and more body hair. I do not say that the amount of body hair you have, or the deepness of your voice is a measure of your manliness. But if he has it, I have to wonder why a man would wish to remove those outward evidences of his manliness.

You sound like my dad, except that he thinks it's dumb for any one to shave their legs, male or female. Women have hormonal changes that cause body hair to grow as well. If that is why men shouldn't shave, the neither should women.

Now personally it depends on the guy and how much hair. I don't mind hairy legs, but when your leg hair is really long you should do something about it, at least in my opinion. But hairy legs bother me much less than excessively hairy arms. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time being in the same room as someone whose arm hair is three inches long.

Women do a lot of things that they believe will enhance their femininity. If a woman doesn't wish to shave it's okay with me. You don't have to get breast implants, either.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you have these feelings? Having a hard time being in the same room as someone whose arm hair is three inches long sounds to me like you have a phobia, or personality disorder.

So a female can do things to either artificially enhance her stereotypical femininity or not, depending on her wishes, but a male is to stay the course of nature and shaving his legs makes him less of a man? If you enforce stereotypical male characteristics (and apparently, you DO), you have to enforce stereotypical female characteristics, because you're promoting a double standard otherwise. How about instead, we don't imagine up huge lists of silly things outside of one's genitalia that determine the viability of your sex? Sex is (except, of course, in some rare cases) a dichotomy, not a continuum. You're one or the other. Everything else is preference. My love of baking and knitting and disdain for playing sports -- much less my body hair -- has nothing to do with anything that is definitive concerning my gender.

And here's some food for thought:
1)If I wear long pants, nobody can tell if my legs are hairy or not (Schrodinger's Body Hair, anyone?). Thus, I am 'hiding' my leg hair. Therefore, long pants make me less manly?
2)Why do you shave your face? It's natural that hair grows there and its presence is a connotation of your manhood, so why would you change that? Is it your latent desire or societal need to become womanly?

Meanwhile, maybe Unit of Energy just thinks arm hair is gross, like some people think a frog or broccoli is gross. Plus, she's obviously employing hyperbole anyway. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, okay?

[Portia]

I will not presume to assign the label of "true man" either way, but I don't mind (and probably even find attractive, in a way) male leg hair, and don't think guys should think they should be forced to manscape or anything.

I shave my legs everyday not because I think societal constructs of gender should control my life, but because I consider it to be a part of good grooming and hygiene, just as brushing my teeth and wearing decent clothes are.

[Portia]

vorpal,
no i do not agree there are things that make you look like a man or a woman. if you mean secondary sex characteristics like breasts or pubic hair, then sure. but how much hair a man has on his legs or his chest, no no no. a man can look manly with or without leg hair or chest hair. a woman can look like a woman without breasts and shaved legs.

and what, pray tell, is "feminine" social behavior? being quiet? doing your work? showing respect? because i expect that of all my students, and i wouldn't say that's "feminine." you seem very wrapped up in the idea of "manliness" and "femininity" when those expectations are COMPLETELY socially constructed. boys used to wear dresses, did you know that? that was a normal societal thing. or men wearing tunics and tights, which is now considered "girlie." the idea of what constitutes manly or feminine behavior is made up by society, it's not set in stone.

and i was saying the attitude of "boys will be boys" is a negative attitude. it's detrimental to children. i don't accept that as an excuse for rowdy, poor behavior.

and i don't think this has anything to do with my age. my age is totally irrelevant to this conversation. just because i'm younger than you doesn't mean my ideas are less valid.

I would actually put a greater amount of body hair in the secondary sex characteristic category for men.

[Imogen]

vorpal,
no i do not agree there are things that make you look like a man or a woman. if you mean secondary sex characteristics like breasts or pubic hair, then sure. but how much hair a man has on his legs or his chest, no no no. a man can look manly with or without leg hair or chest hair. a woman can look like a woman without breasts and shaved legs.

and what, pray tell, is "feminine" social behavior? being quiet? doing your work? showing respect? because i expect that of all my students, and i wouldn't say that's "feminine." you seem very wrapped up in the idea of "manliness" and "femininity" when those expectations are COMPLETELY socially constructed. boys used to wear dresses, did you know that? that was a normal societal thing. or men wearing tunics and tights, which is now considered "girlie." the idea of what constitutes manly or feminine behavior is made up by society, it's not set in stone.

and i was saying the attitude of "boys will be boys" is a negative attitude. it's detrimental to children. i don't accept that as an excuse for rowdy, poor behavior.

and i don't think this has anything to do with my age. my age is totally irrelevant to this conversation. just because i'm younger than you doesn't mean my ideas are less valid.

I would actually put a greater amount of body hair in the secondary sex characteristic category for men.

i wouldn't only because i know so many men who naturally don't have a lot of body hair. no chest hair, short leg and arm hair.

and vorpal, the idea that boys are more aggressive and rowdy is yet another social construct. children act in the way we expect. if we EXPECT bad behavior, we get it. if we expect good behavior, we usually get it. that's something i've discovered in teaching. no gender has a lock on being disruptive or rowdy, and plenty of girls are diagnosed as ADD. i had a dear guy friend who was ADD and on medication, but he was never rowdy or misbehaved when we were kids. his grades were just really bad because he couldn't focus on work and absorb information properly.

studies have shown that girls are just as aggressive as boys (especially psychologically), if not more so. i'll have to go on a lexus nexus search to find them, but they're very interesting. things like levels of aggressiveness are mostly attributed to family history and environment, not gender. having a penis is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved and i don't think an expectation of good behavior is feminizing.

[ice9]

Next time you're PMS'ing I'll be sure to let you know that your ovaries are no excuse for being ill behaved...

[Imogen]

Next time you're PMS'ing I'll be sure to let you know that your ovaries are no excuse for being ill behaved...

what an incredibly offensive thing to say. and extremely stereotypical. and if i'm ill behaved it's because of my depression not my ovaries. so you can suck it. try using logic and not stereotypes, kthanxbai.

[ice9]

Next time you're PMS'ing I'll be sure to let you know that your ovaries are no excuse for being ill behaved...

what an incredibly offensive thing to say. and extremely stereotypical. and if i'm ill behaved it's because of my depression not my ovaries. so you can suck it. try using logic and not stereotypes, kthanxbai.

So you're allowed to say

having a penis is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved

but I'm not allowed to say

having ovaries is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved

And here I thought I was simply echoing your sentiments on gender not being an excuse for bad behavior...

[vorpal blade]

vorpal,
no i do not agree there are things that make you look like a man or a woman. if you mean secondary sex characteristics like breasts or pubic hair, then sure. but how much hair a man has on his legs or his chest, no no no. a man can look manly with or without leg hair or chest hair. a woman can look like a woman without breasts and shaved legs.

and what, pray tell, is "feminine" social behavior? being quiet? doing your work? showing respect? because i expect that of all my students, and i wouldn't say that's "feminine." you seem very wrapped up in the idea of "manliness" and "femininity" when those expectations are COMPLETELY socially constructed. boys used to wear dresses, did you know that? that was a normal societal thing. or men wearing tunics and tights, which is now considered "girlie." the idea of what constitutes manly or feminine behavior is made up by society, it's not set in stone.

and i was saying the attitude of "boys will be boys" is a negative attitude. it's detrimental to children. i don't accept that as an excuse for rowdy, poor behavior.

and i don't think this has anything to do with my age. my age is totally irrelevant to this conversation. just because i'm younger than you doesn't mean my ideas are less valid.

I would actually put a greater amount of body hair in the secondary sex characteristic category for men.

i wouldn't only because i know so many men who naturally don't have a lot of body hair. no chest hair, short leg and arm hair.

and vorpal, the idea that boys are more aggressive and rowdy is yet another social construct. children act in the way we expect. if we EXPECT bad behavior, we get it. if we expect good behavior, we usually get it. that's something i've discovered in teaching. no gender has a lock on being disruptive or rowdy, and plenty of girls are diagnosed as ADD. i had a dear guy friend who was ADD and on medication, but he was never rowdy or misbehaved when we were kids. his grades were just really bad because he couldn't focus on work and absorb information properly.

studies have shown that girls are just as aggressive as boys (especially psychologically), if not more so. i'll have to go on a lexus nexus search to find them, but they're very interesting. things like levels of aggressiveness are mostly attributed to family history and environment, not gender. having a penis is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved and i don't think an expectation of good behavior is feminizing.

I just have a minute right now. I'll have more to say later. But I just received an email with this story, and I thought of you, Imogen. Here it is (minus the cute pictures).

SUNDAY CLOTHES

A little boy was walking down a dirt road after church one Sunday afternoon when he came to a crossroads where he met a little girl coming from the other direction.

'Hello,' said the little boy.

'Hi,' replied the little girl.

'Where are you going?' asked the little boy.

'I've been to church this morning and I'm on my way home,' answered the little girl.

'I'm also on my way home from church.

Which church do you go to?' asked the little boy.

'I go to the Baptist church back down the road,' replied the little girl.

'What about you? '

'I go to the Methodist church back at the top of the hill,' replied the little boy.

They discover that they are both going the same way. So they decided that they'd walk together. They came to a low spot in the road where spring rains had partially flooded the road, so there was no way that they could get across to the other side without getting wet.

'If I get my new Sunday dress wet, my Mom's going to skin me alive,' said the little girl.

'My Mom'll tan my hide, too, if I get my new Sunday suit wet,' replied the little boy.

'I tell you what I think I'll do,' said the little girl. 'I'm gonna pull off all my clothes and hold them over my head and wade across.'

'That's a good idea,'replied the little boy.

'I'm going to do the same thing with my suit.'

So they both undressed and waded across to the other side without getting their clothes wet. They were standing there in the sun waiting to drip dry before putting their clothes back on, when the little boy finally remarked:

'You know, I never realized before just how much difference there really is between a BAPTIST and a METHODIST!!!

[Imogen]

Next time you're PMS'ing I'll be sure to let you know that your ovaries are no excuse for being ill behaved...

what an incredibly offensive thing to say. and extremely stereotypical. and if i'm ill behaved it's because of my depression not my ovaries. so you can suck it. try using logic and not stereotypes, kthanxbai.

So you're allowed to say

having a penis is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved

but I'm not allowed to say

having ovaries is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved

And here I thought I was simply echoing your sentiments on gender not being an excuse for bad behavior...

no you're being a jerk and ascribing a stereotype to me because i have ovaries. not every girl gets pms, and it's not as severe for some than others. so stop being a troll.

and vorpal, that's a cute story, but it really points out what i mean. their primary sex characteristics don't dictate their behavior. ps-thanks for being respectful and not a troll like that guy above. seriously.

[Portia]

I was thinking about this, and I think Vorps has the wrong dichotomy. I don't think men who shave their legs look like women--that's silly. They do, however, look more like little boys, perhaps. I wouldn't think a guy who shaved his legs was a future transvestite, necessarily, but I might wonder why he felt the need to revert to a pre-pubescent state. Even when men shave their faces, it's nice to be able to tell that they at least have something to shave--I don't find a complete lack of male body hair to be attractive at all.

I think male movie stars, and the like, have trended towards a more "little boy" look of late: Michael Cera or Matt Damon seem to be current paragons of male attractiveness, versus the more mature looks, say, Charlton Heston or Humphrey Bogart. Even men's voices somehow sound different in older films.

So I think Mr. Blade is making up this feminization phenomenon, but I do think the zeitgeist might trend towards youth at best and immaturity at worst. I would see excessive removal of body hair as a rejection of manhood, not in favor of femininity, but in favor of boyhood. And that's not particularly attractive to me, though it might be to others. I would want a masculine, mature man, and surely mad baking and housework skills, and a rejection of the sexist, lumberjack mentality, can be compatible with that. I do, however, wonder at the infantilization of some men, who have the emotional maturity of young teens (I've met and even dated such specimens), or who, as was discussed in another thread, feel "threatened" by smart, accomplished women.

Maybe it just comes down to more men needing to wear fedoras these days. ;)

[Fredjikrang]

There is something I don't understand. Imogen, what it seems like you are saying that there are no behavioral or emotional differences between men and women. Would you agree?

[Imogen]

There is something I don't understand. Imogen, what it seems like you are saying that there are no behavioral or emotional differences between men and women. Would you agree?

no, but we can't ascribe all of those differences to our sex. as children we are socialized by a variety of people in certain ways that will dictate how we behave and express ourselves in adulthood. a lot of those behaviors we're taught are passed down from generation to generation. "boys don't cry," "little girls don't get dirty," etc. those things are not dictated by sex, but by society's perceptions of gender, which is a social construct. "men don't shave their legs" is just a social construct, and has nothing to do with what actually makes one a biological male (XY chromosome). that's also the reason it's a surprise when a woman knows about cars. girls aren't supposed to like cars and getting oily, and if she does she's "trying to be like a man." says who? who says girls can't like cars and trucks and still be girlie? why must it be one or the other? why is rowdy behavior excused in boys, but not in girls? why is being quiet in class praised in girls and considered effeminate in boys? and who decides?

there are various differences between the sexes. that certainly can't be denied. but i don't think saying someone who doesn't follow every societal stricture about their gender is being "feminized" or "masculinized" is correct. perhaps they're just being happy.

i think portia hit the nail on the head. recent comedy films especially glorify the idea of an adult male acting like a little kid while the women are drags who want to force them from their charmed, extended adolescence.

and portia, i find matt damon very manly. have you seen the bourne films? yummy, i would like a little matt damon in my life. and in real life he's a loving husband and father. nothing more manly than that, in my opinion. my future husband can shave his legs all he wants as long as he's a good man and loves me and takes care of our kids.

[Laser Jock]

...in real life he's a loving husband and father. nothing more manly than that, in my opinion. my future husband can shave his legs all he wants as long as he's a good man and loves me and takes care of our kids.

Hooray! I was wondering if this conversation would get around to what being a man really means. Elder D. Todd Christofferson gave an excellent talk addressing what it means to be men in the October 2006 general conference. One quotation I particularly like is this: "In large measure, true manhood is defined in our relationship to women."

He also told a story which I love very much. It's a perfect example of his quote above:

Years ago, when my brothers and I were boys, our mother had radical cancer surgery. She came very close to death. Much of the tissue in her neck and shoulder had to be removed, and for a long time it was very painful for her to use her right arm.

One morning about a year after the surgery, my father took Mother to an appliance store and asked the manager to show her how to use a machine he had for ironing clothes. The machine was called an Ironrite. It was operated from a chair by pressing pedals with one’s knees to lower a padded roller against a heated metal surface and turn the roller, feeding in shirts, pants, dresses, and other articles. You can see that this would make ironing (of which there was a great deal in our family of five boys) much easier, especially for a woman with limited use of her arm. Mother was shocked when Dad told the manager they would buy the machine and then paid cash for it. Despite my father’s good income as a veterinarian, Mother’s surgery and medications had left them in a difficult financial situation.

On the way home, my mother was upset: “How can we afford it? Where did the money come from? How will we get along now?” Finally Dad told her that he had gone without lunches for nearly a year to save enough money. “Now when you iron,” he said, “you won’t have to stop and go into the bedroom and cry until the pain in your arm stops.” She didn’t know he knew about that. I was not aware of my father’s sacrifice and act of love for my mother at the time, but now that I know, I say to myself, “There is a man.”

[vorpal blade]

*tinyurl'd by Portia because scrolling back and forth drives her nuts. LDS.org, the URLs you spit out are shaking my testimony.

Thank you Portia. It does look better now.

I think I know what you mean when someone throws at you a juxtaposition of scriptures and conference talks with sources you disagree with. Makes you grit your teeth. Sorry about that.

[vorpal blade]

So a female can do things to either artificially enhance her stereotypical femininity or not, depending on her wishes, but a male is to stay the course of nature and shaving his legs makes him less of a man? If you enforce stereotypical male characteristics (and apparently, you DO), you have to enforce stereotypical female characteristics, because you're promoting a double standard otherwise. How about instead, we don't imagine up huge lists of silly things outside of one's genitalia that determine the viability of your sex? Sex is (except, of course, in some rare cases) a dichotomy, not a continuum. You're one or the other. Everything else is preference. My love of baking and knitting and disdain for playing sports -- much less my body hair -- has nothing to do with anything that is definitive concerning my gender.

And here's some food for thought:
1)If I wear long pants, nobody can tell if my legs are hairy or not (Schrodinger's Body Hair, anyone?). Thus, I am 'hiding' my leg hair. Therefore, long pants make me less manly?
2)Why do you shave your face? It's natural that hair grows there and its presence is a connotation of your manhood, so why would you change that? Is it your latent desire or societal need to become womanly?

Meanwhile, maybe Unit of Energy just thinks arm hair is gross, like some people think a frog or broccoli is gross. Plus, she's obviously employing hyperbole anyway. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, okay?

I don't have time for a lengthy debate on all of this. Please try to understand me. I'm not as extreme as the words put in my mouth.

You and I know that gender is an essential part of our nature. Men and women have different roles in life, and the natural or eternal characteristics and differences in men and women make them more suited to those roles. Obviously a lot of what we learn to be suitable for a gender role is culturally acquired. The kind of clothes we wear, hair styles, shaving your legs, and certain forms of behavior are things we are taught, or grow up assuming are particular to one sex or the other. Somehow we have to learn in this life to separate out the false values and standards of our society from the true standards.

One strand of development that I see in our society is an attempt to blur the distinction between men and women. This trend would have you believe that all differences between men and women are artificial and culturally derived. They reject different roles for men and women. They ridicule the idea. I think some do this for political reasons, but others because it is their feminist agenda or ideology. I think this trend is wrong and harmful to society. I don't believe all cultures are equal. Some are more evil than others.

So, I have a problem with women trying to dress, look, and act manly. I also have a problem with men who try to dress, look or act feminine, whether or not they realize what they are doing. In this case I'm arguing not so much for an eternal or ideal definition of masculine and feminine, but as it is currently understood and defined. Intrinsically, I suppose, shaving your legs is not a female activity, but for most people today I think that is the way they think of it. So when you behave in ways that are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as feminine, you break down the barriers between the sexes, and pave the way to obliterate all societal constructs of male and female. You obfuscate essential differences in roles which are eternal. That is the gist of the way I see it, and I respect those with a different view.

I don’t have a problem with women who wish to enhance their femininity with perfume, cosmetics, shaving or hair removal, jewelry, and the like. I wouldn’t mind if they didn’t do it either. But at least they aren’t trying to blur male/female distinctions. Sometimes women use immodesty or inappropriate dress and behavior which is vulgar, but they think it enhances their femininity. I don’t approve of unduly calling attention to one’s body. Obviously that will vary depending on the cultural setting. There are limits to what a woman should do to show off her femininity, and there are limits to what a man should do to show off his masculinity.

All things must be done in wisdom and judgment, with an eye on unintended consequences. I think a beard looks manlier than a clean-shaven face. However, in our day and age a beard means more than just manliness. There are other factors which need to be considered, not just whether or not it is masculine or feminine.

I’m sorry if I haven’t fully answered all of your questions. Thank you for your stimulating thoughts and opinions. Your comments are helpful to me to clarify my own thinking. The thinking of a person admittedly not of your generation.

[vorpal blade]

vorpal,
no i do not agree there are things that make you look like a man or a woman. if you mean secondary sex characteristics like breasts or pubic hair, then sure. but how much hair a man has on his legs or his chest, no no no. a man can look manly with or without leg hair or chest hair. a woman can look like a woman without breasts and shaved legs.

and what, pray tell, is "feminine" social behavior? being quiet? doing your work? showing respect? because i expect that of all my students, and i wouldn't say that's "feminine." you seem very wrapped up in the idea of "manliness" and "femininity" when those expectations are COMPLETELY socially constructed. boys used to wear dresses, did you know that? that was a normal societal thing. or men wearing tunics and tights, which is now considered "girlie." the idea of what constitutes manly or feminine behavior is made up by society, it's not set in stone.

and i was saying the attitude of "boys will be boys" is a negative attitude. it's detrimental to children. i don't accept that as an excuse for rowdy, poor behavior.

and i don't think this has anything to do with my age. my age is totally irrelevant to this conversation. just because i'm younger than you doesn't mean my ideas are less valid.

I would actually put a greater amount of body hair in the secondary sex characteristic category for men.

i wouldn't only because i know so many men who naturally don't have a lot of body hair. no chest hair, short leg and arm hair.

and vorpal, the idea that boys are more aggressive and rowdy is yet another social construct. children act in the way we expect. if we EXPECT bad behavior, we get it. if we expect good behavior, we usually get it. that's something i've discovered in teaching. no gender has a lock on being disruptive or rowdy, and plenty of girls are diagnosed as ADD. i had a dear guy friend who was ADD and on medication, but he was never rowdy or misbehaved when we were kids. his grades were just really bad because he couldn't focus on work and absorb information properly.

studies have shown that girls are just as aggressive as boys (especially psychologically), if not more so. i'll have to go on a lexus nexus search to find them, but they're very interesting. things like levels of aggressiveness are mostly attributed to family history and environment, not gender. having a penis is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved and i don't think an expectation of good behavior is feminizing.

Having grown up with two younger sisters and three younger brothers, I’ve seen first hand that boys are just start out in life reacting differently from girls. It isn’t something we impose on children. It isn’t a result of our expectations. I also was taught that all differences between male and female are due to nurture, not nature. For awhile I started to believe it, despite my own observations. Then I had seven children of my own and I could see that there are intrinsic differences. It wasn’t something my wife or I did to make them that way. I do believe that society can strongly influence how the children will develop, and can in many ways subvert the natural inclinations and behavior of children, making boys act more feminine and girls more masculine.

Of course, not every boy will be uninterested in dolls and head for the truck toys. Not every girl will like to nurture and care for baby dolls. Some little girls will be attracted to the trucks. And that is okay. But it would be a mistake to believe that all little girl interest in dolls is due to being told that that is what they are supposed to have interest in. Sometime adults say such things, but usually girls come by it very naturally.

I certainly agree that our observations are colored by what we expect, and often children behave in ways that meet our expectations. This is true of my observations, but it is also true of your observations. You expect that all differences between boys and girls are a social construct, so that is what you see.

True, plenty of girls are diagnosed as ADD. This doesn’t prove that boys and girls are identical. Boys are three to four times as likely to be diagnosed as having ADHD as are girls. Furthermore, experts estimate that about two million children have ADHD, but six million children currently are given ADHD prescription drugs for the symptoms of Attention Deficient Disorder. It would seem that a whole lot of children are getting the drug for behavior that teachers feel is unsuitable, but don’t really have ADHD.

The American Psychiatric Association describes a hyperactive child as “One who exhibits behavior such as fidgeting, squirming, answering questions before being called on, difficulty playing quietly, engaging in physically dangerous activities such as running into the street without looking, or one who has difficulty following instructions." Maybe you think that girls are just as likely as boys to exhibit these symptoms, but I think most people who live or work with young children would disagree.

Girls may be just as aggressive as boys in their own way, but that is the point. The way girls are aggressive is usually different from the way boys are different, because boys are different from girls.

You’ve clearly identified aggressiveness and rowdiness as “bad behavior,” and being “ill behaved.” You realize that is a judgment, don’t you? You see it as your job as a school teacher to teach them that such behavior is “bad” and “ill.” You expect them to behavior “better” in your class. You’re molding little minds of mush, some might say.

One of the things I’ve learned as a parent is that some of the most objectionable behavior in my children is not necessarily bad traits. I want my child to do want I want him to do, but he is being stubborn and uncooperative. As a parent I find that frustrating. Yet, in a teenager or adult, I want my child to stubbornly refuse to go along with peer pressure. I want my child to stubbornly resist evil pressures in the world. I have to be very careful to not break my child of a trait which in later years will be essential to his or her success in life.

“Aggressive” behavior can be good behavior. While I need to teach my children to respect others and their property, I have to do it in a way that doesn’t teach them that aggressive behavior is bad or unacceptable. Aggressive also means “having or showing determination and energetic pursuit of your ends.” That is a good thing, when properly channeled and controlled. When you punish, or drug, a boy for being aggressive in the way boys are typically aggressive, yet do nothing to teach a girl to control her aggression, because her form of aggression is not disruptive to your class discipline, you effectively feminize your children.

Similarly other behavior - fidgeting, squirming, answering questions before being called on, difficulty in playing quietly, risk taking - can make teaching or parenting difficult. But they are also primarily boy-like qualities which are not necessarily evil. Boys have a greater need for physical activity, which helps prepare them for roles they will later have. I don’t mean that girls have no need for physical activity, it is just not usually as great as a boy’s need. If you follow each boy-like attribute into manhood you can see a need for it. Crush it and you raise a generation of wimps.