byu bookstore

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:51 pm

the bookstore is run by a bunch of idiots. every quote from the DU article about their terrible policies from the bookstore made me gag a bit. them pulling their adverts from the DU is just plain laughable.

the bookstore is making a business decision to not share book information with students until a few days before the semester. they do this to make it difficult for students to find other sources for books. if the bookstore feels they can make such a business decision without any ethical concerns, why should i as a customer feel any ethical obligation to tell them my reasons for returning a book?

Post by **bobtheenchantedone** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:55 pm

It is quite possible to know what books you need in advance enough to get them from other sources. It just requires a bit more work than waiting for the Bookstore to get the lists from the teachers and put them online for your convenience. Personally, between the cheap tuition and the convenience, I've never minded getting books at the Bookstore.

(Though that probably also has a bit to do with my half tuition, discount on textbooks, and pell grant.)

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:12 am

thank you for your anecdotal experiences that really have nothing to do with the discussion......

why is it the bookstore who gets that information? why isn't it the university or the department or the...

the bookstore essentially has a monopoly on that information (yes, it is possible to get it from a multitude of other sources, assuming you have the time, the professor will tell you, etc etc etc). just like any other monopoly, they should lose certain economic rights, such as expecting their customers to tell them reasons why they are returning a book.

Quiet Lamb · Post by **Quiet Lamb** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:45 am

Now now bismark, don't get mad at bob trying to shed a little bit of positive light on the situation.

As for the bookstore, I think they are terrible really, but I wait until I get to the first day of classes to buy books anyway. I've had way too many classes that the bookstore's list has been DEAD WRONG on that it isn't worth it really. In the days of express shipping and cheap textbook stores around every campus as well as book exchange, I'd say it is fairly easy to get books after that point if you don't want to support the monopoly. Don't buy the book if you're ordering it online... make friends and borrow or study with someone in the class.

But seriously, what does one person or even a group of people really do to Walmart by not shopping there?

Post by **Laser Jock** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:35 am

Bismark, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying that your honesty depends on if you feel like the other person deserves it or not. Is that true? It's okay to lie if you disapprove of a business practice?

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:50 am

laser jock, i would not lie, i would just refuse to answer the question. something like "i dont need it anymore." i am under no further obligation.

if the bookstore can't compete, well too bad, this is capitalism. no one should feel obliged to support a failing business model.

but to be clear, i dont do the whole buy online and the bookstore then return the book. not worth the effort i think. im talking principles here.

Post by **Laser Jock** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:24 am

bismark wrote:laser jock, i would not lie, i would just refuse to answer the question. something like "i dont need it anymore." i am under no further obligation.

They are likewise under no obligation to accept your return. There's no law saying any business has to accept any product for return; businesses accept returns solely to further ingratiate themselves to the customer. If they decide to place conditions on that, it's completely up to them. As you said, that's capitalism.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:24 pm

except when there is a monopoly, like in this case. they begin to (or *should*) lose certain rights as a monopoly or else capitalism fails.

Post by **Laser Jock** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:48 pm

bismark wrote:except when there is a monopoly, like in this case.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

The Bookstore has no monopoly, generally speaking. The vast majority of textbooks they sell are widely available on the national market. How do they have a monopoly?

Is it because they have information on what books professors are going to use? Well, so do you--or you can. You have exactly the same access to that information that they do. They put time and money into contacting each instructor and finding out what books they'll be using, so that they can have the books ready and in stock. They gather and organize that information at their own expense. Under what principle are they obligated to provide you with that information, free, at your earliest convenience, so that you can go to their competition?

They're already doing more than they have to by providing the information online at all. If a week doesn't seem like enough lead time to you, then e-mail/call/visit your professors yourself and find out what books you'll need.

You asked why it isn't the university or the department or someone else who collects this information, and makes it available in one central place. I don't know, but I do know it's not the Bookstore's fault. Certainly professors don't sign a non-disclosure agreement or anything like it. The Bookstore isn't acting in any way to keep the information to themselves. I imagine that the university simply hasn't seen the need yet.

There is no monopoly. And I honestly don't see how you feel entitled to free access to information from the Bookstore that they have gathered at their own expense. You can always go get it exactly the same way they do.

Unit of Energy · Post by **Unit of Energy** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:48 pm

At least you can get a list. The college I went to before here the only way to find out what your books were was to go the the bookstore on campus the day classes started and find the class section on the shelf labels.

Nanti-SARRMM · Post by **Nanti-SARRMM** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:08 pm

I think Unit has it right. The University is doing a service to us, they don't have to provide a list at all, but they do. It's like a story I read in a news source a week or two back that there were some people on a plane who were informed that they had access to wireless internet during the flight. Mid flight it went down and one of the patrons started complaining to it, as if he had a right to it, a right he didn't know about before he stepped onto the airplane.

We should be grateful that a list is provided, and it is given a week before. If it is so imperative that you know sooner, then ask the professors or something like that. I imagine that the date at which is provided is to be fair to to general populace, because if they started publishing the list as soon as they got the books needed from the professors, then there would be complaints about incomplete lists, or students who have their books listed and while others don't, due to to teachers.

So we should really stop complaining at something so inconsequential.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:25 pm

sadly all of the good analogies for getting screwed over but being grateful for some small thing aren't appropriate for this audience.

jocky, i certainly do understand what a monopoly means. now, if you really feel like getting technical on your terminology to try and make your argument seem more worthwhile, go ahead. i'm sure there is a latin term for such a logical fallacy that would make me sound *teh awesome* too.

the bookstore holds information that creates an extremely high barrier to entry into the market. it is in the most common usage of the term, a monopoly.

the bookstores business model is this:

1) become the de-facto standard repository for textbook information
2) withhold said information until close to the beginning of the semester in order to make the create an extremely high barrier of entry for other sources
3) create a return policy which ensures its monopoly of said information cannot be used for other sources without a great deal of difficulty
4) profit

see, no "????" step needed.

this is a terrible business model. "i don't know why" isn't the best argument for why other sources don't exist for the textbook information. could it be that the bookstore, as an arm of the university, holds a great deal of sway with the powers that be? that maybe the bookstore would act like a child (we already have evidence of this with the DU incident) and refuse to supply books for a department if they information was released in a more timely manner?

nanti, i hate to say it but your analogy sucks. the bookstore is not providing a service. they are withholding information in order to ensure their own profits. just because unit's university sucked even worse doesn't mean we should just be happy with what we have now. that like the people who say "ah, government wiretapping isn't that big of a deal, at least we aren't being gathered into concentration camps."

Fredjikrang · Post by **Fredjikrang** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:32 pm

While I agree that I would like the Bookstore to more openly share it's information, I agree with Laser Jock.

You say:

the bookstore holds information that creates an extremely high barrier to entry into the market. it is in the most common usage of the term, a monopoly.

I disagree. They hold information that gives them an advantage, yes. But they have to work to get that information. In my opinion it is like any other protected information, such as trade secrets and patents. Anyone is welcome to find the information on their own, and in this case it isn't even relatively difficult. But the bookstore is currently the only organization with enough incentive to actually accomplish it.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:40 pm

fred, i doubt thats really the case. this is an age old problem, so why hasn't someone else stepped up to bat? i think the only logical explanation is that the bookstore has more direct access to the information and probably strong arms departments into not releasing it earlier. such tactics are certainly apparent in the way the bookstore has been acting lately. using one's position in order to keep other parties out of the market is a monopoly. the bookstore does not have to compete with other sources because it makes itself the only source.

Nanti-SARRMM · Post by **Nanti-SARRMM** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:41 pm

Is a monopoly on information illegal?

Also we are given a week to buy our books, that surely is enough time to buy books from other sources. In fact, just doing a quick search on the HBLL website, I found some textbooks there of classes that I have taken; so surely you can check those out until you buy the book from whichever source you chose.

Also, if the bookstore allows students to return books for full price until the student decides to return it because they found it cheaper elsewhere, then they wouldn't make much money at all.

Also, have any of us really asked, or has a report been done by the DU to find out the process of getting the book list set up? Do any of us really know what is involved with it?

Also, I had to return some books and they didn't ask why. It's just a bad business model for them if students use them as a book loan service.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:02 pm

nanti, some are, some aren't. an example of a legal information monopoly would be a copyright. but this information isn't copyrighted nor proprietary, so i doubt they can claim any legal protection from that.

its true, with the way things are currently run, without such a return policy, the bookstore would go out of business. but thats just the point: they are setting up these artificial limitations in order to ensure that their poor business practices still bring in money. if they really wanted to compete, then the information would be freely available and they would have to lower their prices. if they can't do that, then their textbook department would go out of business, which wouldn't be all that terrible of a loss if you ask me. then the departments would release the information freely and quickly, allowing us all to find our books at the best prices.

i am sure the power that be at the DU are too big of wimps to really dig much further into the issue, though i would love it if they did. technically they really have nothing else to lose (advertising is king in news publishing), but i have a feeling that other "influences" would step in (kind of like back in the 70s when the DU was hostilely taken over due to its coverage of the university and african americans) before we would get much more.

Nanti-SARRMM · Post by **Nanti-SARRMM** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:14 pm

So you say let them go out of business because they cannot afford to charge less money because of the prices that the publishers sell the books for?

As for return policies, some book stores have a 30-90 day return policy, which means that with a 4 month semester that we wouldn't be able to return books at all, we'd have to sell them on Craig's list, ebay, or whatever, competing with everyone trying to sell textbooks.

The bookstore allows full refund for the first two weeks in case we drop a class or something, and then at the end of the semester allows us to return the books for 60-80% back. If the textbook department did go out of business, we wouldn't have that.

So what would you propose to do to make the Bookstore more fair to students and still make a profit off text-books?

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:24 pm

other textbook buyer/seller businesses would pop up to fill the need if the bookstore went under.

Post by **bobtheenchantedone** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:26 pm

And if the Bookstore went under, there goes the extra money (profits are put back into the university) and there go the jobs for students and people like my dad.

Darth Fedora · Post by **Darth Fedora** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:43 pm

1. It's not hard at all to get textbook information from professors. It just takes an email.
2. The bookstore does have a monopoly on some books. For a few of my classes, I've been required to get custom textbooks that you can only buy through the bookstore. I'm not talking about the packets, I mean actual $100+ textbooks. That's lame, but it's really the fault of the professor or department.